Linda Perry Interview
Doug Burke:
Hall of Fame songwriter Linda Perry rose to fame out of the late 1980's San Francisco club scene with the band, 4 Non Blondes with her breakout song, What's Up. It became an international hit and remains a call to action anthem for multiple generations including today's. She attempted a solo performance career including songwriting stylistic shifts that were frankly overlooked by commercial radio. Those songs are incredibly compelling and in my opinion due for mining by contemporary performers. But Linda really found her stride as the songwriting inspirational partner for artists like Pink, Christina Aguilera, Gwen Stefani, Alicia Keys, Courtney Love, Celine Dion, Kelly Osbourne and many others. With five number ones and many more chart topping hits, she has proven her extraordinary brilliance beyond her early success and today discusses her unique, intuitive songwriting style with us on Back Story Song.
Welcome to Back Story Song. I'm Doug Burke, your host. And today we are thrilled and honored to have Linda Perry who was a 2015 inductee into the Hall of Fame of songwriters with us to talk about the back story, vision, and creative process of her songwriting. So obviously you've started with 4 Non Blondes, but why did you start writing songs and when did you start writing songs? I know you got your first guitar at the age of five. I think you wrote Itty Birds and Desperate.
Linda Perry:
Pretty Girls, Pretty Girls.
Doug Burke:
Pretty Girls and Desperate. Sorry I make a lot of flubs. And then obviously you had the breakup smash with What's Up. Do you know how many times that video has been listened to on YouTube?
Linda Perry:
No. I feel like somebody said that it broke something massive.
Doug Burke:
It's 859 million listens. Almost a billion. It's your most played-
Linda Perry:
Do you know how much money I made on that? Like $5.
Doug Burke:
Part of the reason I started this is to actually fix that problem. I believe songwriters are overlooked in this Spotify, Pandora world in a wreck away.
Linda Perry:
Well, you know when you were in MTV and your video played on MTV if it was played in prime time, you got 49.95 and if it was played in the after hours, it was 39.95. And then you got your money from radio. So songwriters were making a lot of money pre-2009, let's just say. And then computers happened and they weren't prepared. Nobody thought that this would come to this. And it's unfortunate. I can have a song on Pandora play 500 million times and I probably made $1,500 off of that. If that happened to me before 2000, I would be completely taken care of, but it's like you have to work extra hard right now.
Doug Burke:
The other remarkable thing about that YouTube statistic is that you released that song in '92 and YouTube didn't start until 2005. So you almost have a billion plays. Your number two most listened to song on YouTube is the He-Man meme of that song with 169 million listens.
Linda Perry:
You can't go wrong with a He-Man version.
Doug Burke:
Do you like that? I wanted your reaction to that.
Linda Perry:
Of course. I mean, it's awesome.
Doug Burke:
It's awesome? You love it?
Linda Perry:
I mean anytime you have a song and it's either parodied or performed or covered or however, I mean I think that that's the whole thing that we expect as songwriters is you're hoping that you write a song somebody wants to cover or parody or do whatever it is, because that's the whole point. As soon as you write the song and you release it out there, you have to understand you're releasing out to the universe and to the world and you no longer have any control over what happens. You're going to hear bad remixes and disco versions, and country versions, and karaoke versions, like a million karaoke versions. And that's amazing because you write a song all by yourself in your own little tiny world and all of a sudden the holy universe is hearing it.
Doug Burke:
But do you ever feel like it's 55 years and your life is still trying to walk up that great big hill?
Linda Perry:
It'll be 65 and 75, and 85, and 95. It'll all be the same for me. I stay the underdog. I'm always like... Still today, after being in this business for so long, I'll be like, "I need to talk to somebody that's some CEO or whatever. I cold call people just hey or email and say, "It's Linda Perry. I would really like to talk about something." And I'm always shocked when somebody responds within five minutes and is like, "Of course." I still live in that shock of not understanding the scope of where I am sitting in life right now if my career and success was labeled 10 steps, 10 steps on the ladder and 10 is your career and your success. To me, I'm on three. I have a long way to go and I'm constantly fighting and struggling because I don't take for granted what comes to me and I don't ever feel like I'm good enough. So I'm constantly trying to do more and more and stay true to my heart and hopefully that I'm setting an example of somebody who is doing it her way and not the way of the industry. And I think that that's kind of why people pick up my call because they know I'm very credible because I'm super transparent, I'm really honest, I'm right to the point, I don't bullshit. I deliver quality. I might not have quantity, but I definitely deliver quality.
Doug Burke:
You're an incredibly authentic songwriter and person and we're grateful for that as your listeners here at Back Story Song. Why did you call the song, What's Up when the chorus is not that?
Linda Perry:
Well, probably because “what's going on” was already taken and you can't really fuck with a song like that. But also I thought it was more interesting. It's like “what's up? What's up with fucking the world? What's up with where I'm at right now? It felt more grounded and more true to the song. That was the intention. Intention was not what's going on, it's more like what the fuck is up, man?” It's like “why does it always seem like either I'm struggling, there's some fucking political mess happening? Why is this all happening in the world? I think it was Reagan, I think at the time. Was it '93, Reagan, '92? What was '90? I felt like it was Reagan or Bush. It was Reagan or Bush? But there was some really not so awesome choices being made, but I'll take those motherfuckers back in a heartbeat over the one stupid idiot one that we have right now.
Doug Burke:
Yeah.
Linda Perry:
I'm sorry to be harsh, but it's like it's laughable, but then it's super sad because it's like I'm not coming from a political point of view. It's not Democratic versus Republican, it's just human, and the human that is standing as a leader is pathetic. It's like “is this for real?” I keep thinking Mark Burnett is producing the presidency right now. Just let's throw this in just say this and I guarantee it's going to make good TV. I swear to God, I really believe that theory that Mark Burnett is standing with the president and producing it right now, producing a mess and these people are going to go down in history of all this disruption. But beauty is coming out of it. Communities coming from it. There is a world that's wide awake. A lot of wonderful things will happen during this historical, extremely historical time in our life with all the shit happening right now all at once.
Doug Burke:
And I think this is why the song has such legs to it. The what's up, what's going on is a double entendre. It's something that you say to your friend, "Hey, what's up? What's going on?" But that's not what you're saying in this song, is it? It's like you're saying, "What the F is going on here in this world?" And that question has not ended. In fact, it's probably gotten more pronounced for the world.
Linda Perry:
That's why the song is timely and it can go, it'll have a lot of legs. It'll continue to be this epic and anthem-ish type of song for all the generations to come because I think that there's people that try to write songs that are for today and then there's people that are trying to write songs for life and those are the songs that I choose to focus on is how my going to make an impact to this generation, the next one. What can I say that's going to be here 20 years from now? Those songs are harder and you don't write as many of those, so I focus on that and I think that What's Up is definitely a song that when my son is 40, he's going to be playing to his kids and they're going to be singing it and I'm certain it will be still a classic in the world. And if you get one of those, man, it's fucking awesome just to have one. But I got a few of those right now so I'm happy about that.
Doug Burke:
Yeah, you have many of these, but this was your breakout. You and Christa Hillhouse and the band were playing in this club scene in San Francisco. I guess that's where you work the song out. One of the things I love and I always asked in my Back Story Song is I love the lyrics that are not words and almost the entire course and the break of this song are these things like “hey”. It's not just “hey”, it's “hey, yeah, yeah, yeah”. And then it's “ooh”. Did that just come to you when you write “ooh, do you write oh, oh, dot, dot, dot?” How do you write the lyrics out? How does that happen as the songwriter?
Linda Perry:
I actually rarely write my lyrics down. So I ad lib. I just keep doing that until I find the lyric. So with What's Up, it was literally me just sitting there and I just kind of open my mouth. I was 24. But I said “24 years of my life and still, trying…” And then I was like that doesn't sound right. And then I just went “25”. That felt right. And I just make it up and just ad-libbing. I did that I think for probably a good 30 minutes and then all the lyrics just start showing up. And then when it got to that break after chorus, it was like, "Well, I don't want to hear any words right now and I just went. I was tending to write lyrics there. Now, I was putting that as a filler, but then I loved it so much I was like, "No, I'm going to leave that." I think sometimes you don't have to say words, it's an emotion and it's some of most people's favorite part that one area.
Doug Burke:
No question.
Linda Perry:
So I just try to stay true to the song. I don't edit as I go along. I just am plain. That's just how I am as a songwriter. I ad lib and I'm just on the fly. You can give me three chords right now, tell me anything and I'll just make up a song right here on the spot with you live. And because I have that trust and that deal with my creative like "Hey, listen. I promise I'll be honest. If you just let me have the creative, I'll be worthy to that." So that's kind of the deal I have.
Doug Burke:
You have amazing gut instincts about this stuff. It's a gift. Very few people on the planet can do that. And both the hey, yeah, yeah, yeah part and ooh part, I think some of the greatest non-word lyrics ever written. My brother and I, we love the version of, With a Little Help from My Friend by Joe Cocker where you just like, "What's he saying?" Well, it doesn't matter because he's just communicating this emotion. And you communicate emotion in such an effective way both in the actual word lyrics, but also in these non-lyrics, and just throughout your songwriting. We're going to come up with some other songs where it plays a role. It sounds like birds cooing when you go to the break. Anyway, so you can go in the studio with David Tickle as your producer and yet you've talked about this in other interviews how you guys trusted him, signed by label, Interscope Records, top label in the country. Maybe one of the top ones.
Linda Perry:
They actually weren't. The greatest thing about Interscope why I chose them, the band wanted all the bigger, fancier labels. Interscope was independent and they just started. They had Marky Mark... No, they didn't have Marky Mark. They had Gerardo. They had Primus. Yeah, maybe they had Marky Mark and then they had 4 Non Blondes. They were just starting out. So I loved them because they were boutique and then what they really had was Jimmy Iovine. Obviously, Jimmy Iovine was just a star. So at the time we actually broke Interscope. 4 Non Blondes was their biggest act and we broke them. So Jimmy has immense respect and loyalty with me and we ended up being very good friends. I confide in him a lot. So they know. They know what we did. They weren't expecting it at all. We're in the studio with David Tickle. He was not my choice, but when you're in a band, it's a democracy. You have to raise your hand and vote and he won because the band all voted for him. I wanted Steve Lillywhite. I was actually even interested in Terry Date. He's a really great engineer that did all the Mother Love Bone and did all those guys back then in Seattle. And really incredible engineer, underrated guy. So I was trying to get Lynne Morrow and the band shows David Tickle. He wasn't my personal thing, but I've never been in the studio before. I just felt like it didn't sound good to my ears and so I remember playing a guitar and be like, "Oh, man." When I'm in the library, I'm like Les Paul and at 63 Vox. It was like, "Oh, man. It's fad. It's like in my face. Man, this is off." Then I'd go into the control room and I'd hear the guitar and it sound really small, very distant. And I didn't know he was compressing it heavily and putting a lot of reverb on it. I'd go, "David, come in here." I'm playing, I'm like, "It's like thunderous in here. Where is that? I want to hear that in the room. Why can I hear that?" And he was like, "Linda, just let me be the producer and you just be in the band." That's how all my questions were met by that guy is like, "Can't you just be the singer. Let me be the producer." Blah, blah, blah, blah until he ruined What's Up. I took it to the label and I said, "I'm not releasing the song. This is horrible. There's just no fucking way. I got the band to go with me to the plant in Sausalito. We had one reel of tape and I produced it. I went in there, dialed in sounds. I have no idea what I'm doing. I just listened to what sounded good to my ears. The engineer there helped me. He was extremely behind me because I had played in the original, what David Tickle did and he's like, "Oh." So we did that all night long. David Tickle showed up like around, I don't know, 1 or 2:00 in the morning right when we got our last take. We mixed it and got it delivered for master the next day. When I presented the fact that I should be producer on this, I was met again with everybody this time. “Can't you just be happy you saved the day?”
Doug Burke:
One of the greatest songs ever written, most loved by the fans. I guess they were wrong about one, huh?
Linda Perry:
So that is the actual version I produced and David Tickle did not produce it. So from that moment on, it was like very clear to me that I will never, ever experience that ever again. That's never going to happen. You're not going to have these dudes telling me just to go and be a singer because they think they know more. So I became a major ball buster and ever since that day I'm like, "That will never, ever happen to me again." It hasn't. And if it does, I just call it out right on top and ... There is this one instance with this one producer where I did a song for Gwen Stefani in What You Waiting for. So I did the whole demo. The demo was awesome. The producer asked for the session and I was like, "Okay. I can give it. If they want to pull stuff, fine. That motherfucker used pretty much my whole demo including vocals and didn't give me production." And I was like, "Those are my guitars. It's my background. That's my lead. That's my bass. Those are my drums. That's all my shit and there goes my keyboard.
Doug Burke:
What did you do?
Linda Perry:
Exactly. I think he beefed up the beat and added another bass and that was about it. And it came out with no production for me. I went to Jimmy, I said, "Hey, this motherfucker..." So Jimmy on the next round of CDs, he pulled it and put my name on there. I don't think I've even heard of that producer since then. He had a reputation for doing stuff like that. Everybody let him slide because he was a big producer and dared even telling me, you should just let it go. That's what he does. I'm like, "No fucking way. Are you kidding me? I'm not going to work my ass off for this motherfucker to take credit." So I stood up for myself and got my name back on there. With this business you have to. You have to fight. It's a struggle. It's not an easy business. It is not. My son is showing interest and he's five years old.
Doug Burke:
Oh, good. That's when you started. That's when you got your first guitar.
Linda Perry:
He's like David Bowie. I'm telling you my son is insanely talented and creative and very theatrical. I'm not kidding you. Sometimes I'm watching him and I'm like, okay, this is going to be his journey and I'm going to let him have it, but I'm a little scared for him and what this business is going to be 10 years from now, 20 years now.
Doug Burke:
So the next big song due, maybe I'm out of school here on this because let's skip over your next album for a second and you get to the Pink, Get the Party Started. You really produced this thing. You start playing with equipment and really take your production talents to another level with this song. And one thing you do in all your songs is you get across emotions amazingly. But typically, your motions are about heartbreak, and trauma, and pain, and struggle, and the underdog overcoming. This song is not that. This is the opposite of that, which really shows your versatility as a songwriter if you asked me. Let's talk about this song.
Linda Perry:
So Get the Party Started, I moved from San Francisco and came to Los Angeles. I'm an analog girl. I mean, you can see these are all Fairchild's and I have my API over here. I'll always have that. I have a bunch of Apple gear underneath me right now. But when I moved here, I was like I got to get hit, man. I got to figure out what all that shit is on the radio because I couldn't stand the sound of it. So I went to a friend of mine that was all in the now and I said, "What this shit that people are using?" He's like it's Triton keyboard, MPC's, the samples from Roland, expansion card and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, all right. So I went and bought all that. Oh, and D88. I'm like “okay.” So I went and bought all that. I put it all together. It took me all day to put it together. I know this stuff. I'm analog. Analog is plug-and-play, dial and stuff. But this is all like we can't just use the presets, you got to fuck around with shit, drums. You can't just be kicking the snares. It's got to be like free kicks. It's got to be three snares and different sounding hi-hats to balance each other. Congas, whatever. So I get on the MPC. Now, everything is all set up and I'm just like going, "I'm just going to have fun with this." So I get the MPC, I start with the MPC. And mind you, I'm doing this all live. So the MPC, I didn't understand it quite yet. So I just played the beat like for three-and-a-half minutes. She I'm just like... So I'm doing that and then I go back I add. Right? So then I'm like, I need some percussion. So I get shakers. Congas. I start putting that in there. So here's my beat. Then I'm like bass. I kept scrolling around trying to find a bass, but I couldn't, so I just picked up my bass and I just did that line, “boom, boom, boom, boom. Na, na, na, na, na, na.” So I'm like okay. I play all that for three-and-a-half minutes. I said “I don't have pro tools.” Then I get on the Triton, I'm like going crazy like every single sound that I found, I stopped and I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to do this." And then one was like a weird clap and then there was like some crazy horns from the Roland. Then I was like a okay, I need a guitar and I got the “wah-wah” and just played wah. Then I'm like, "Okay, this sounds really great. There's so much going on, but it was working. It was like, oh, this is so much fun, upbeat and I just grabbed... I had a bullet microphone and bullet microphone for you guys so you know is a harmonic microphone.
Doug Burke:
Green bullet.
Linda Perry:
Yeah. So like, what am I going to say? And I was just like, I'm going to think of every cliché possible. The words just showed up. And then I did go back after I laid a vocal down and then I started writing down what I was saying because I was just saying so much craziness. And then I made it make sense and then I just lay down the vocal. I was laughing because I knew it was a hit. I was just like this is so awesome because I didn't think at all. To me, I was just playing and having fun. I wasn't trying to write a song, I was just trying to understand what this equipment did. And then literally a week later, get a phone call from this girl Pink and saying, "I love you," blah, blah, blah. "I want you to sing on my record or write a song with me." I called her and I said, "Hey, do you have the right Linda Perry because I'm really not hip at all." I saw a video of her with a Pink hair and the bling, bling. I'm like, "I'm not hip. You might have the wrong Linda Perry." She started laughing. She's like, "Are you Linda Perry that was in 4 Non Blondes?" I'm like, "Yeah. The one that wrote Dear Mr. President. Yeah, the one that wrote What's Up." She's like, "I have the right Linda Perry." I'm like, "Okay, weird." So I went and met her and we just got along so well. And then I left her with Get the Party Started. I said, "Hey, I just wrote this song. I don't know if you're interested. But here." And I gave her an MP3, and then she called me probably three or four days later and Ellie Reed said, "It looks like we have our first single." And then that's kinda how we started. And then she came here to my house. We just wrote like 15 or 16 songs and eight of them ended up on the album.
Doug Burke:
Wow, Alecia you call her.
Linda Perry:
Alecia.
Doug Burke:
Alecia. Most of us and my listeners know her as Pink.
Linda Perry:
Yeah, I know. It was super hard to call. I never could call her Pink and she was fine with that. I'm like, "I'm so sorry. I'm not going to call you Pink."
Doug Burke:
And you've had amazing collaboration.
Linda Perry:
Yeah, but we had a really good time together and it was fun. All of that was experimental on my part and I just was like, "I don't understand what you're doing. I don't get the white chick singing this bling, bling stuff with the pink hair. It doesn't make any sense to me." And she's like, "Well, that's not what I started out wanting to do. I ended up that way." And I asked her to bring me her CD collection. Like I'm just curious. So she brought her CD collection the next day. It was Aerosmith, Aretha Franklin, Janis Joplin, Billy Joel, Patty Smith, The Beach Boys, The Beatles, Stevie Wonder. It was all this very cool music. I said, "How the fuck are you singing about bling bling and changing? Most girls, I don't get it. Your taste is very soulful." So I operated from that. So everything that we wrote, again, with me making her ad-lib, just find out who she is and what she wants to do. It was really fun doing that record because it was so not my style at all. Some of the things that were going on was just like me kind of experimenting too. So I think that's what made it a really good collaboration. I think hey man, that's what makes you great songwriter is like you have to get out of your own shit all the time. You know you have to... A great collaborator, a great songwriter isn't just simply writing songs for yourself. You're trying to put yourself out there to be open to what is going on in the world. Where do I see? What do I want to do? What's my vision? How do I want to convey my messages? Again, you can be like a Dr. Luke or those guys that just poop out the same format over and over. The same tempo, the same static, the noise over, and over, and over. And those guys are killing it, and that's great. I'm really happy for people that can create like that. I just don't know how to just release things that have no purpose.
Doug Burke:
Was that your first time writing a song for someone else's voice for someone else's instrument?
Linda Perry:
I didn't write the song, no.
Doug Burke:
You write that for yourself?
Linda Perry:
No, I didn't write it for myself, I just wrote it and I didn't think about it. That's what I'm saying. You can't edit yourself. What will happen is we can be in the middle of the song and I'm going to change it. I think I like the other version. We just go back and forth doubting what we're doing. So that's the editor and that editor fucks everything up. Then you'll go, "What is this? This sounds like more of the dude song?" Just write the song. The song is coming to you for a reason and it might not be for you. So I think that's where we have to really step outside of ourselves because not everything we write is for us. It might be for some guy that you're going to meet two weeks from now and he's going to go, "Hey, I love your vibe. Do you have any songs?" And you go, "Fuck, yeah. I just wrote this weird song. It sounds like an old country guy and you're an old country gal. It's perfect for you."
Doug Burke:
So out of all the songs you've written whether were on the shelf or maybe were recorded, if you could pick a voice to record one of them, what would be the dream voice and the dream song that you've written to see recorded?
Linda Perry:
Honestly, I don't mean to be a dick head.
Doug Burke:
No, that's all right.
Linda Perry:
I'm only right now. I'm in the here, now. I don't work that way. I am constantly like I don't work with what is not here. Would I love to work with Madonna? But I don't have a song for Madonna because I need to be in the room with her. That's what I'm saying. I can write songs all the time, but I don't know where the songs are going until the world presents to me the vessel that these songs are going to be spoken through.
Doug Burke:
So you have been called the songwriter therapist, the music therapist. Christina Aguilera calls you up and you guys co-write, Beautiful.
Linda Perry:
No, she didn't co-write that.
Doug Burke:
So how does this happen?
Linda Perry:
I walked into a club, which I rarely ever go to and Christina was sitting with a bunch of people and the bodyguard and the red rope. I had met her really briefly like maybe, I don't know, five months prior, something, before the Pink album. All the people left. She was there by herself. I went in there and said, "Hey, I heard you're working on a record." She's like, "Yeah." I said, "You know what, it'd be really great if you actually really tap into your depression and your darkness for this one because the world knows you can sing and nobody actually knows that you feel what you're singing." She just was like... And then I'm like, "Oh, so I got to go." So I left. My friend was like, "What the fuck did you say to Christina Aguilera?" I'm like, "Why?" She was like, "She's like watching you. Her mouth is open, watching you walk off." I said what I said and he's like, "You did not just say that to Christina Aguilera?" I'm like, "I did. I was just telling her the truth to tap into her depression and her darkness." I kid you not, a week later, her people called and said that Christina wants to meet with Linda. So she came to my studio and I had just written, Beautiful and I was still working out lyrics to stuff. When she got there... And I have a rule that no bodyguards, no rubies. There's no, what you call posses, no managers are allowed in any of my sessions. They are very distracting and I just don't appreciate them. So she was in there by herself and she was very nervous. She's like, "Well, can you play something just to break the ice?" I'm like, "Okay." She's like, "I like your voice. It would be nice to hear you sing." So I'm like, "Okay. I'll play the song Beautiful." It's like whatever. So I'm playing it and she's all the way in the back there. Let's just say she's back there. It wasn't in this room and this room. It was different. But she's in the back of the room and she gets closer and closer until she's like standing right here by the piano and she said, "Can you demo that down for me and write out the lyrics for me and give it to me?" I'm like, "Why? I'm still trying to understand what this song is about. I can't even sing it because I don't believe that I am beautiful." So that's where I'm coming from. It's like I'm not beautiful. I don't believe that. I would never say that about myself. How ridiculous? She was certain she wanted it for the album and I was like, "Well, you can't sing a song like this. You are beautiful." So then I was like, "Okay. I'm going to let her sing it and then I'll just see what happens." So she came back and I laid down the piano. She said, "Can I bring a friend?" And I said, "Of course, yeah. Of course, you can bring a friend. No problem." She's like, "I'm just nervous. So I gave her the paper. She sang from the microphone and we're all in the same room and you just hear this, and you can just hear “don’t look at me” to her friend. She says that to him, just “don’t look at me”. As soon as she said that, I knew the song was meant for her and then the song became clear what it was about. It was about somebody who didn't think they were beautiful. It was actually about somebody who is insecure and they're telling themselves, you are beautiful. We are beautiful. You are beautiful. We are beautiful no matter what anybody says. Then this hot chick is singing a song and you're seeing all the vulnerability from her and insecurity. I was like, "Oh, fuck." Then the song became clear to me what it was all about. She nailed it one take. The only thing we went back and did was the bridge. She kind of missed a couple notes that she wanted to do. The song that went number one that has blown up all over the world was one take, except for a couple of punches in the bridge.
Doug Burke:
Well, here's where I think your authenticity really comes through because they did send her into the studio with a bunch of session people or something I read and they did another version, and you and she came back and said, "That's not it. That's horrible."
Linda Perry:
No, that never happened.
Doug Burke:
That never happened? I thought I read that. No?
Linda Perry:
No. That didn't happen. What happened was Ron Fair when I was on vacation, he tried to put more strings on there because I did a quartet. I did 16 tracks. We're talking 16 tracks when people were using 90 to 100 tracks on Pro Tools. I did 16 tracks of quartet, piano, Moog, guitar, bass, drums, vocals. And it was tight. I mean, it's a great sounding song. So when I was away, Ron Fair, he hated the production because it was so simple. As you know, Ron Fair over produces everything. So when I was gone, he was trying to get the session to put strings on it while I was gone. I actually came back from vacation like, "Ron, what are you doing? No, no, no, no. You don't do that. "He never got the session, so no that never happened.
Doug Burke:
So they never put the strings on? They didn't wreck the song. They stuck with the original.
Linda Perry:
Well, they didn't have a choice. Christina loved it, I loved it. I mean, nobody could touch it. You can't touch someone else's bodywork.
Doug Burke:
I swear your instincts are amazing. This is a hard business as you said, but there's also everybody who has an opinion on this stuff.
Linda Perry:
Yeah.
Doug Burke:
You have to fight for your opinions. You've had to fight for your opinions your entire career and you've been right.
Linda Perry:
Dude, I'm still fighting for my opinions. It's honestly, when you have so much... My intentions are really good and when you are a good person that is thinking about the artist and the integrity of the music and the respect of it, it will always be a fight because it's rare for someone to stand up and fight for the artist. It's rare someone is going to fight for the integrity of a song because they're too scared to lose something. I've dealt with so many people that didn't want to fight a bad deal because they didn't want to lose the song, the opportunity. Are you kidding me? I'm not going to let my guy... Because I manage artists and producers and songwriters too. And I said, "I'm not going to let my guy... This deal is unacceptable. I'm going back and I'm asking for a certain amount of time or amount of money and negotiate." It will be a song that my guy wrote with somebody else. So the other manager is like, "I'm ready to sign off." I'm like, "Are you nuts? This is a terrible deal." But that's what people do. They don't want to lose something. They operate from fear. They make decisions based on fear. And anytime fear comes into play for me, I actually do the opposite. I never make decisions based on fear because that only lands you in not a good place. You're not respected. People know you're a pushover and everybody knows, you cannot push me over and I'm not being bold or confident, I'm just being this is who I am. This is the person I built based on what I know about this business. It will tear you apart. And not intentionally. Nobody is doing it maliciously or intentionally, it's just part of what happens in the game. It is a game and it's a very strategic game. So I strategically operate from my heart.
Doug Burke:
So you wanted to talk about Cheap Trick's Perfect Stranger, and I love that you picked this band and this song to talk about. It's a band that I grew up with. You co-wrote this song with the band. Is that correct?
Linda Perry:
Yeah. Well, that one was interesting because Cheap Trick is live at Budokan. I am air guitaring, bouncing on my bed. I mean the best record ever. And Surrender, all those songs are so good. So they called me to write a song with them. In my mind, I'm like, "I can't do that. I'm never going to write a song better than Surrender. But I don't want to miss this opportunity so they wanted to come work with me and they booked it. So the night before... And I never do this, ever. When I do a writing session, it's always from scratch when the person walks in. But this particular session, I wanted to be prepared. So I had wrote Perfect Stranger, and the majority of it I had written to the melody, a lot of the lyrics and the music. So they came in and I walked into my studio and there's just all Rick Nelson's guitars down my hallway and I'm like, "Holy shit." I have my mod orange kit that I set up for Bun E and he was like freaking out with this kit. So I had dialed up stuff the night before and they walk in. You try to contain yourself because it's Cheap Trick. I'm trying to be cool and they're like, "So what do you got? Do you have anything?" I'm like going, "Well, I have a song I started last night that I was nervous. I wanted to be somewhat prepared, but normally don't do this." They're like, "Well, what is it?" So I start playing in the song. Rick figured out the chords and they take it down half step and all of a sudden, they're like, "Okay, let's go do it." Robin took the lyrics. I mean, it all happened. They're like, "Let's record it. We love it." But this is not better than Surrender. In my mind, I'm saying, "This is not better than Surrender." I barely had time to say hello and we were already recording this song. So I dial up the sounds really quick. We play the song two times and Bun E gets up and he's out.
Doug Burke:
Wow.
Linda Perry:
I'm like I wasn't thrilled yet. I didn't feel like we had the take. They're like, "Bun E only does two takes and he's up." So he's gone. I'm like okay. So we start doing overdubs and putting more guitars with Rick then all the vocals and everything. We just get it all done and Robin adjusts some lyrics and so that was it.
Doug Burke:
Wow.
Linda Perry:
And then it became Perfect Stranger. But it's a really great song. They were like this is-
Doug Burke:
It is a great song.
Linda Perry:
I just wrote another one for them and that they're doing for the new album. And it's really amazing. I think it's way better than Perfect Stranger. I can't remember the name of the song but they're putting out a new album. I sent it to them. I didn't even know they were doing it until their manager called and said, "He was the splits on this? What do you want to do? This is what the guys did." I'm like, "The splits on what?" They're like, "The song that you sent in, they recorded it." I'm like, "They did?" It sounds so good, and it actually is pretty damn close to a Surrender song. I'm actually really happy about it.
Doug Burke:
I don't know if it's a sequel, but it's definitely a great song and it's a Cheap Trick song. It's not someone else's song. It's for them.
Linda Perry:
Well, that's what to me is important. When you have a band like Cheap Trick, I can't go write them a new song. You have to stay true to who the artist is. One of my things that I struggle with is when artists want to be in the mainstream. They change everything that was great about them so they could fit into this. It's almost like they're lowering their bar to fit with this sidewalk. It's like they're a fucking Empire Building and they lower their standards just to be at the level of a sidewalk, a curb. It always shocks me when a great artist does that. So I just try to keep the, again, focus on who the artist is. I am very lucky because I can morph and I have a lot of musical style. I can write a country song. I can write a disco song. I can just jump around and do whatever because I'm not afraid. I'm fearless when it comes to the creative. If I want to write a country song, I just go into that character and I feel it. I'm emotional about it. I can be an old guy that's smoking a cigar at a piano lounge and just sit there. Whatever, and just start being that person. Or I can be a very, whatever, Debbie Boone if I want to, but I have to feel it and I have to have the passion. I believe that's what makes me a very unique songwriter. Again, I'm not popping out hits all over the place, But I really enjoy what I do. I'm proud of myself for sticking to my heart and being an advocate to stay true to who you are.
Doug Burke:
So one of the things I've talked to a lot of songwriters about is how hard it is to write a love song. Paul McCartney said it's pretty easy to write a love song and it's not. The Thing About Love is a great love song.
Linda Perry:
Ain't it really great? I love that one.
Doug Burke:
How did this come about. Tell me about the song.
Linda Perry:
Well, Alicia Keys calls me and wants to come work with me and I'm like, "Fuck, yeah." She was a little late. So I was sitting at my roads and I just start playing the song and she walked in on it. She's like, "What's that?" I'm like, "I don't know. It's just some song." She's like, "Well, just keep going girl." I record everything. Any time I'm in the studio, it's just recording because I can come up with five songs in very quickly and I'll lose what I did 10 minutes ago. So I record everything. So I'm sitting there and I just start going. So then I do the whole take and then she's like, "Can you play that back?" And then she starts writing everything I'm saying. She's like “do it again”. And then I may get some more stuff. She writes it all down and then she starts filling in the gaps and that's how that song came to life is like she just took all my ad libs and turned it into lyrics. And then, again, we just jumped right into it and started recording it and she loved it, and then that just basically started our whole creative relationship. It was super fun to work with her because she's so talented and very clear of what she wants. I never met somebody that confident because she didn't care where the song was coming from. It's like she just heard that there is something real happening when I was singing it. Then when she could understand my emotion by writing all the lyrics down, she's like, "Okay. Let me play now." She made me play piano all the time because I play a lot different than her. I'm a little more simple. I'm a little more John Lennon and she's obviously extremely incredible. So then it would be like time. Okay. And she'd move me off and then she would take over. And then it was just like all the sudden, it just takes on his whole life because it's now Alicia Keys singing and playing the song that was really me... I don't have that type of voice.
Doug Burke:
Who does? My goodness.
Linda Perry:
So it was really awesome to work with her because honestly most artists would be insecure about the producer or the other rider being so in front of the song. Let me say this. A lot of artists will cock block the creative experience because of their ego, and Alicia Keys isn't like that. She invites in everything whole of you. She wants you to shine as much as she's going to shine because she knows when you're shining, it's going to shine for her. So she's definitely a lifter, a creative. She expels the creative out of you.
Doug Burke:
Very collaborative. So this is a love song. How do you write a love song? What do you think about? What inspires you in the lyrics to write about love? It's such a hard thing to explain and to write about. What was behind this song?
Linda Perry:
The Thing About Love is about love in the world. It's not about heartbreak love. If you're trying to write constantly from the heartbreak of love, that can be difficult because honestly you're kind of reinventing what really happens. You want it to be so poetic. It's so personal, right? But when you're writing about love and the true meaning of what love is, whether it's humanity, and you're not personalizing it too much about me and her or whatever, I believe the song becomes very easy if you can tap into what's going on in the world and how important love is. There's many types of love and maybe the love you're speaking of that is hard to write about is just the one on one in a relationship. To me, most of my songs are not about one on one. It's more global. It's more about you interpreting what you want like Beautiful. It's not about me. It was very relatable to a lot of people. What's Up, not about me, but I talked about being 25 years, but it was relatable because somebody out there is 25 and you can relate about the story like I screamed from the top of my lungs. What the fuck is going on? What's going on? Get the party started. It's always somebody that thinks they're like the queen of the party or the shower, whatever. And that was relatable because it was like such a fun, stupid song. So I think that, again, I just somehow tap into the universe and the people not me. So the songs are not about me, they're just about... Except there's one thing I think I put in there like It Fucking Hurts by Deep Dark Robot.
Doug Burke:
Yeah. That's what I want to talk about next. Deep Dark Robot, It Fucking Hurts is about a love breakup, right?
Linda Perry:
That's about a love breakup. I was in the studio all the time and I'm like, "I need to get the fuck up out of this studio." Because I love performing and I was a great artist and I was a great performer.
Doug Burke:
You still are.
Linda Perry:
Thank you. I was like, "I need to get out of the studio. I've been here too long." So I wrote this album called 8 Songs About a Girl and that whole album is a love song, and it was about this person that was mentally just emotionally playing with me. So I wrote this album. Again, I call it Deep Dark Robot, the band and I just went on tour. But that song is interesting because I fucking love it. The whole thing it's like it was all in real time. So every single time, this person did something, I wrote a song. So it was all in real time happening. Until the end, the last song like Fuck You, Stupid Bitch, I'm not going to waste my time anymore on you. But It Fucking Hurts, you hear the torment and what I was going through. It's like I don't know that voice. That voice just came out. I don't know what the hell that voice was, but that's the way the song wanted to be sung. It's like literally one of my favorite songs I've ever written.
Doug Burke:
So Deep Dark Robot, I think the song is in the middle of the eight songs, but it's the number one Spotify favorite of the album.
Linda Perry:
Yeah, I think this is a great song. Again, I just really like it. I like the weird way I'm singing it. It's like part dude. I don't know what it is. Actually, it's a very strange sounding vocal, but it was so moving to me and it was so real and was so painful because I wrote it like literally, that experience happened the night before and then I came in, wrote the song just recorded it. So everything, again, was recorded in real time of how it was affecting me and happening.
Doug Burke:
So this is a personal song and tell me if I'm off the mark here and you don't want to go here, but this is a girlfriend of yours, going out with another guy.
Linda Perry:
Yes. It wasn't a girlfriend. It was a girl that was playing me that kept making me believe that we are going to have this relationship and clearly would be texting me. "Hey, I miss you." blah, blah, blah, blah and then I would see in the tabloids that time she was texting me, she was with some other guy. I'd be like, "What? She was texting me this and then she's sitting with that guy." So it was like a mind fuck. I came into the studio and I just wrote that song. Because I was so tormented. I was addicted to this in and out and in and out, and it was crazy like I was in it. It was like poison that I just love drinking. So I was getting some satisfaction out of it in some way because it was creatively really kind of fun for me having this experience and writing all these songs and you mean nothing to me. You look at all the song titles. I mean honestly, I love that album the way it was recorded. I mean, it was so quick and so fun and then playing it live was super fun too. It's gritty, it's cool. It's a great record.
Doug Burke:
It really is a great record. This record should be listened to by my listeners, okay? You need to go to Spotify and listen to this, among many of Linda's music. We're going to have a playlist up on the website of this stuff, but this is something that has been overlooked, let's just say. It's not a radio album per se.
Linda Perry:
No, no. But I do think there's radio songs on there, but it's just like... Again, I wasn't going that route, I was just-
Doug Burke:
I can tell you, It Fucking Hurts is not going to get played on radio.
Linda Perry:
No, it's not.
Doug Burke:
The listeners love it. They made it your number one on the album.
Linda Perry:
Yeah, I love that.
Doug Burke:
So tell me about the album and working with Tony.
Linda Perry:
So Tony was a friend of mine and drummer. He's a friend of mine at the time. I just said, "Hey, I'm going to do this album. Do you want to jump in and do it with me?" He's like, "Yeah." So it was just me and him. And I just played everything. So he played drums. I'd sing, play guitar and drums to get the song down and then I just play bass and keyboards and did all the other guitars and did it all on my own. So then when I went to go on tour, I just put a band together and by the way super fun. I mean, I dial in the sounds and make it really ratty. It's a cool record. I mean it really is. Actually, if I re-released it now, I think it would probably have more legs because I think I may have hit something a little bit before it's time because that style wasn't really ripping. I think we had Jet. Again, it was a chick doing this style and I think that that kind of throws people off a little bit because it's very not a chick record. You can tell like I'm not singing like a normal girl. My voice just doesn't do that. I have a very interesting weird little tone that shows up because I change my voice depending on the song. I just don't have one tone as you can clearly hear. I change. If you listen to You Mean Nothing to Me, it's like I sound like a French lounge singer. It’s like in It Fucking Hurts. The voice is changed on the whole entire record.
Doug Burke:
I don't know if you would react negatively to this and I'm going to throw it out there go ahead punch me in the face if it's a dumb idea, but I think this would be a cool song for a guy to record.
Linda Perry:
Oh, yeah. I can see that.
Doug Burke:
You could? Okay.
Linda Perry:
Yeah, totally.
Doug Burke:
All right. Maybe not such a dumb idea.
Linda Perry:
Maybe I'll make note and go find some guy to sing this song.
Doug Burke:
Oh my stars, this has been amazing. Linda Perry, I have to thank you so much. I have to thank my sound engineer, DJ Wyatt Schmidt. Thank Louise, your sound engineer. Is there anybody else you want... Oh, Karen. Been amazing, helping put this together. I would love to do some more songs with you if you ever want to come back on Back Story Song.
Linda Perry:
Yeah, please. It was fun.
Doug Burke:
It's been a true pleasure. I have to thank you. Thank you, thank you.
Linda Perry:
All right. Thank you. Thank you to all your listeners. And yeah, go check out 8 Songs About a Girl by Deep Dark Robot.
