Rain Phoenix & Kirk Hellie Interview
Doug Burke:
Welcome to Back Story Song. I'm your host Doug Burke. And today, we're here with Rain Phoenix and Kirk Hellie. Rain Phoenix has been exploring her passion for music since her earliest days. One of her early performances was with her brother River, as an audience warmer on the show Real Kids in 1982. Rain and her family have been active in philanthropic and activist causes their entire lives. Among the many causes she supports include the Lunchbox Fund, a nonprofit organization, which provides a daily mail to students of townships in Soweto, South Africa. The River Phoenix Center for Peacebuilding, the Artists Charity, the Art of Elysium and the Gift Horse Project, which brought together well known and emerging artists in service of charity.
Recently, Rain created a podcast LaunchLeft, which is hosted by Rain and Summer Phoenix and is where famed creative launched the next wave of music raddles. Her first solo record entitled River was released in 2019 via LaunchLeft. The first single Emily was released on River's birthday, August 23rd. In the album River, Kirk Hellie and Rain had forged a body of work that not only serves as a totem to her brother's legacy, but also eliminates the depth and beauty of her own artist work.
Okay. So I'm here with Rain Phoenix and Kirk Hellie and we're on Back Story Song. We're here at the Sundance ASCAP Music Cafe that brought you to town and you have a new album out.
Rain Phoenix:
Right.
Doug Burke:
And as you and I both know, as I mentioned last night, this podcast for me is a personal experience, based on my last conversation with my dad. And he said, "I have to do this." And then he passed away and it was like this thing I felt compelled to do. And really it has amazingly helped me through this grief resolution process. And I don't think you ever resolve your grief. I didn't tell you last night, but my mother also passed away when I was 10, from breast cancer. And so I had to experience that at an early age. And I feel like it leaves a black hole in your heart that shrinks, but never goes away. And everybody has to deal with grief as you've said on stage. And I imagine that's part of this album for you.
Rain Phoenix:
Yes, that's right. Thank you for sharing your story. I'm sorry for your loss. And, I appreciate your story though. Because I think it absolutely is, like I just said today, I know you were at the show, it's the one thing that I realized in making this record about my brother, River. And his passing away was how, inexplicably tied to others and their loss. It is just to even honor someone, you immediately realize like every single person has someone they honor, or that someone that told them, "Oh, you should do that." And then passed away, as in your story. Or have something tied to losing others or fear of dying. And so, this record really was an opportunity to share about that and open a conversation about the universality of loss. So I really appreciate you sharing and I'm glad that you got to see us perform and felt a kinship and wanted to talk to us about some of the songs on the record.
Doug Burke:
Yeah, I imagine a lot of people are going to approach you with their personal stories. And I don't know if it helps you or not. And for me, it did help to talk to you about it last night. Even though it's been a while and I have made a lot of progress in the grief resolution process. But it is a process and it's like this never ending thing. And I think he touched on something that we're left here to live. And this album you've created is part of your life and your expression of your life.
Rain Phoenix:
Yeah, I hope that it's a life affirming record in that, I'm not afraid to talk about death. That's a lot of why I think it is important to talk about death and loss and grieving. Because culturally it's not very acceptable and we don't really do that. And it's in many ways, like you said, I think that is part of what creates or keeps that black hole feeling very much alive in a sense. As opposed to finding ways to heal by way of just affirming that the person you really care about is no longer with you. I don't know if that's an eloquent way to talk about it. But it does seem like the more that our culture turns towards death positive discussions and discussions about barrels or how people want to. And you actually shared with me that your father had explicit instructions to not do any life support systems should he pass away. And that you and your siblings were all there when you unplugged. And that's so profound, that's something that he thought about because he wanted you all to not have worry about that. But not everyone knows to do that, or they're afraid to even think, "I'm going to die." So they don't share, they don't do that. They don't set up their death. And that can cause a lot of problems in families and a lot more pain. A lot more grieving, and a lot more uncertainty. I think it's really hard when you lose people because you don't know their wishes. How to proceed and how to honor them. And so, that's why I do advocate for more death positive approach to how we live our lives. Because at any given moment, any one of us could go and have we prepared? And have we shared what's most important to us? And have we said, "I love you" to the people we care about. And so, this record, it was made from a very personal space. But ultimately, with a very vast aspiration, a universal wish to alleviate the suffering of losing others for everyone. And I hope that it provides a healing savvy in that respect. And the songs vary from not all the songs. And Kirk is here to expound more on behind the songs. Which is what your podcast is about. But not all of the songs were specifically, we didn't write these songs with grieving in mind out the gate. It wasn't really specific, but what happened was, along the way about halfway through, I really connected to realizing I needed to honor my brother with this record. And once that happened, we just finished it very quick. It all came together. Something was like the missing link of what made this record have that additional, healing element. That I think until I understood why I was making the record, I was just making really cool songs with Kirk.
Doug Burke:
There's a very stream of conscious, poetic aspect of your lyrics on the song. I wouldn't say every song is about grieving, as you mentioned. So maybe we can talk about some of the specific songs.
Rain Phoenix:
Yeah. In terms of the song and what it meant. Sometimes it takes me months to interpret a song I wrote, and then I realized what it was for me. But I don't like to share those stories with others. But I would love to talk about the song you write that, I brought a very chicken scratch, as I like to call it, sketch of a song to Kirk. Really basic folk chords and what he ended up doing with that song and the instrumentation and the idea he had was at first really different for me. But I'd love for him to share a little bit about what the process was around that. Because that's really the behind that song is how he came to understand it sonically, based on a very simple sketch I brought him.
Doug Burke:
So Kirk, Rain brings you chicken scratch.
Kirk Hellie:
Well, I think it was a fully realized song really. But, I think what she's getting at is I took the chords, cowboy chords, basic chords behind her melody. And instead of approaching it from a Stromae singer songwriter way, or even to plunk it out on the piano. I thought it would be interesting to write it as if it were a string quartet. But then not assign each of those parts to string. So not like violin, violin, Viola, cello. Because I wrote it like that. And then I just executed it with guitars. With a device called an eba, which has been around since the late '70s and it just puts the string. It's something you put over the string and it puts it in constant sustain. You can get a string like effect with it. But anyway, I wrote it for string quartet, and then just in the studio performed each part separate like that. And what you get is a feeling and awareness of what that chord might be at any given moment. But yet it's orchestrated in such a way, just like, you'd hear or whatever that contrapuntal parts. So it's not just a Stromae bit. But, all these intertwining melodies that harmonically make up the chord from chord to chord, but have their own melodic voice continuous throughout the piece.
Doug Burke:
Yeah. There's this lyrical tonality that continues around these different voices that you musically create and then they blend together and overlap and go in and out.
Kirk Hellie:
Yeah. That was the point.
Doug Burke:
Yeah. And do you use a lot of electronics on stage of some of this stuff with the two of you just performing or if there's a different performance with a larger group of -
Kirk Hellie:
We've been touring as a duo, so we needed to rethink arrangements and how best to replicate it live. And we definitely didn't want to go the route that a lot of people do, which is just bring all the information, all the Sonic information on a laptop and you just hit the spacebar and then you're good for the whole song. Because it was just playing the entire back area -
Doug Burke:
Okay. Karaoke.
Kirk Hellie:
Karaoke, right. We definitely didn't want to do that. I'm not a big fan of that kind of thing. I just stay home and listen to the record.
Doug Burke:
It's not. You are clearly-
Kirk Hellie:
And it's not. There's some stuff that's lifted from the record and put onto this little small sampler that Rain will trigger. But, more than half of it is just different things that were created specifically for the live duo experience. Cheesy old drum machines we would use and a sample and we'd play those live. But all that stuff Rain's triggering live. Like from the chorus to the verse to the bridge or whatever. There's different sections, she's hitting the pad while she's singing to bring it in. And in some situations she's even further manipulating those sounds live. So that any performance you see of us doing this, there's no two performances that'll be exactly the same. And that to me is key. That's what I really enjoy.
Doug Burke:
So You right is about you writing?
Rain Phoenix:
That's great. I like that. That's a fun play on words.
Kirk Hellie:
- about me writing. We all write.
Rain Phoenix:
Well, I think it's pretty self explanatory. In that, like I said, I'm not going to break down the lyrics exactly. But, the lyric is I got everything wrong. I got you right. So it's a love song, but it can be used interchangeably. It can be an unconditional love song between a parent and a child or two lovers or siblings. Because it's really the idea that messing up somebody, the protagonist feels like they did something that was harmful or shitty to the other person. And they're like, you know what? I got everything wrong, but I got you right. Because you forgive me.
Doug Burke:
I think this concept of forgiveness, which was in my eulogy and with my dad is really an important part of life that a lot of people miss. And we fail to forgive ourselves, we fail to forgive others. The one thing I found profound about are my six siblings and I being there with my dad was that we actually had forgiven each other for stuff in our lives. And there was no one who couldn't be in the room with each other. And in the aftermath of that, people who told me stories. Like they couldn't be in the room with a sibling when their parents were dying. And I thought, "Oh my goodness." It's like, I'm so grateful that we didn't get to that point. But one of the foundational things was that we were able to forgive each other. Because when your kids are growing up, you don't always treat each other right. And you had quite a family who's of siblings, not just River. You, Summer, Liberty, Joaquin. You've been a public person, you're an actress, you're a singer with REM and red hot chili peppers.
Rain Phoenix:
It was like my past life. But yes. Very grateful for it. But that was many years ago. And yes, I've been in music and and film.
Doug Burke:
This is your new life.
Rain Phoenix:
This record is really everything right now that I'm focused on. This and the podcast LaunchLeft. Where I invite well known artists to launch emerging bands. And I know you've heard about that podcast and listened to it with my sister Summer and I host it.
Doug Burke:
I love it. It's great.
Rain Phoenix:
It's awesome.
Doug Burke:
And everybody who's listening to this should go listen to LaunchLeft, amazing interviews. But let's talk about that for a second.
Rain Phoenix:
Sure.
Doug Burke:
What is the purpose? What are you trying to accomplish with LaunchLeft?
Rain Phoenix:
Well, LaunchLeft is a space for famed creatives to launch the next wave of music rebels. That's our tag, but it's also an intentional space to highlight and empower all artists for whom radical creativity is not a choice, but a necessity. So what that means is, we're really interested in interviewing and hearing music from artists who are unapologetic about their craft and what they want to say. And they don't bend and change the way they're going to make art to please others.
Rain Phoenix:
They make it because it out of them just as it is and they feel very strongly about it. It's really about curation within left of center art. And the idea that well known creatives that we respect that have done things their way and gotten to the top doing it. They're who should be telling us who's the next wave of those kinds of artists. And really what it came about was asking myself, who's the next Beatles? Who's the next PJ Harvey? Who's the next David Bowie? Why doesn't there seem to be those artists anymore that are just to me, culture changing figures. They're not that prevalent. So I thought it'd be really interesting to, in a small way, through a podcast at least start there. But it's a much bigger idea to begin to try to find those next artists and to ask the people I respect in music and art and filmmaking to share with me who they think is great. Because there's a lot of music out there and that's a bonus to some extent. I'm happy for the artists, obvious they can put up, anyone can put anything out. But it also creates an overwhelming amount of music. And to me, I would much rather get someone I really trust to tell me who have all these myriad of bands out there, should I listen to. If I don't have much time in a week, tell me, give me the top five on your list. So it was a way to skim the top for others and try to have deep conversations about art and activism and culture. And then also highlight somebody unknown.
Doug Burke:
Yeah. I love how the artists you bring on are very passionately, organically driven. It's like part of their soul that they can't shut down. They have to get it out there.
Rain Phoenix:
Yeah.
Doug Burke:
So how did you and Kirk come together?
Rain Phoenix:
I met Kirk through my brother Joaquin years ago, like a 10 plus I think now, 2010 or '09, I think we met. And we played together in a band for a short time. And then we didn't really play music together. We both do music obviously, and we're doing other projects for a long time. And then this is amazing how this, we came together to collaborate on this record. It really came organically, which I shared on stage today too, is we've worked together on one song that was part of a small EP or double a side single. And from there we just kept writing and producing. He kept producing these beautiful pieces of music and I kept wanting to write to them. And next thing we know it was a record that, is that is my record, River that's out now. So it was really organic and we have a lot of the same, musical sensibilities. But I honestly just trust his musicality more than I can safely say. Apart from River, who's obviously no longer with us. He's the person that I absolutely trust. And for this record, I was able to be hands off for the first time as a producer but I didn't really have to even play very much instrumentation at all. I don't think I did I play any. I did on, I guess, time is the killer. And that was it, I think. Which I have to say was wonderful for me. I love that I got to just sing and write, vocal melody and sing lyrics that I wrote. But in terms of like all the music, not only did he handle it, but he just impressed me more than anyone I've ever worked with. And so, it seemed very meant to be this record. And I'd love to share more and make him share more about some of the other songs because, I'd never worked with the composer. And Kirk's also composers that someone who wrote symphonic compositions for instrumentation and had musicians come in that played what he wrote. I used to have musicians improvise, I would use classical instrumentation, but I never had anyone who actually wrote parts that they already heard on the song. And that was something really special about working with Kirk. I feel like we should talk about one of the songs that he wrote.
Doug Burke:
Let's do it.
Rain Phoenix:
Let's talk about Lost in Motion. I'll start it off. And then I'd like you to talk about how you built that song. But I will just say that I heard him playing, he brought me a piece of guitar music that was beautiful and dark, and I was unsure if I could even write to it. I couldn't find a melody, but I thought it was the most beautiful music I'd ever heard, but I was like, I don't know if it could go on the record, because I can't even think of how to write to it. And then for some reason, my brother River and I had a band called Aleka's Attic and there was a song, Lost in Motion. And one day I heard that music Kirk had written and suddenly I started singing lyrics from that old, old song from 1990. And somehow it made sense in the song. And so I changed the melody and I added more lyrics and that was my writing process with that song. But I'd love for Kirk to share the musicality, like how he built the song from it being just this gorgeous guitar piece.
Kirk Hellie:
I think lost emotion was one that, we had a few songs and then when it was decided that we should just carry on and make a whole record, we needed more materials. So I remember just sitting down, I think it was pretty much a year ago. We're in January right now. January of the previous year. It just came out, like the whole thing. I think I still have it on my iPhone. I just recorded it. And it was maybe just a day or two later or the next, maybe two days later. I have a small studio set up at home to sketch things out and I threw down the guitar with just a primitive beat. And both the primitive beat and that exact guitar part went there from the sketch made the record. That's what you hear. But that's how it started. And there was no whole lot of thought behind it. It just came out like that.
Doug Burke:
Some of the best songs and my interviews appear to have been created that way. It's almost like this thing that, it's you and just got to get it down. There's ones too that evolve over time and you really craft them and spend time with them. They're cool too. But yeah, it's a lot of fun if it just happens.
Kirk Hellie:
So I brought up the music for her. And yeah, I think she thought it was a bit dark sounding. But when she came around to it, she came up with this gorgeous melody. And then I think from that point as it's the same with some other songs. That's when I started to hear other instrumentation on it and how to flesh it out and what other things should go on there. Her melody would inspire that. It's like, "Okay, this part needs strings. And this part needs this." And yeah, that was all based on her melody. How everything else got, orchestrated around it.
Doug Burke:
There's something beautiful about the harmonics of the two of you together in performance. It's just mesmerizing almost in the audience, I think. For me, it's captivating. What I try to explore in this podcast is what I call the invisible language, this marriage of the words and the sounds. And you guys captured it on this record in that way. You can't separate the two, they're completely intertwined yeah in song.
Kirk Hellie:
Thanks that's a good thing.
Doug Burke:
It is a good thing. And that's when it's working, I think.
Kirk Hellie:
Yeah.
Rain Phoenix:
What made you think of adding trumpet?
Kirk Hellie:
Lost in Motion at the end?
Rain Phoenix:
Sorry, yeah.
Kirk Hellie:
I don't have like a concept of why. I just heard it. That's the same with me with a lot of music stuff. I just hear it. And then, I won't be happy until I've done it. And sometimes it's a bit of an expense to get real instruments in and I'm always a stickler for trying to do that too. But yeah, I heard sax on it. It just seemed like a tenor sax in particular kind of a low smoky sax on it for the two melody beats. The re intro and the middle aid. And then, at the end it just seems like it'd be really cool to take it on a further journey and just have some crazy, out improv on it. That really took it out in that old school, like no wave New York kind of way. And, it was really nice. Because you have this really melodic sort of foundation and then you have this blowing sax that goes out a key on purpose and squonking here and there and it's a different way to build tension.
Doug Burke:
So you hear the sax in your head and there's a lot of session sax musicians in your world, I imagine. How do you pick the sax player, that's the guy to do that? That honky skunky sound that you're looking for?
Rain Phoenix:
I honestly don't know even how, I'm trying to remember how I met Matt DeMerritt, but I immediately said, "Oh, my friend, Matt DeMerritt, he's a great sax player."
Kirk Hellie:
That's with a lot of things on the record and he was perfect for it.
Rain Phoenix:
He really was. Yeah, thank goodness. He actually came and played. We had a residency in Los Angeles. And we had a full band for that one, which was really fun. I hope you get to see that someday because it's a whole different experience. But he played with us live as well. And he's just such a great horn player. It's really remarkable. And honestly, like I can't help myself. I'm just going to expound a little bit on Kirk more because, what you heard that you really liked is the duo. Very recently we showcased at a film studio and we had the duo. But then we added a pianist who played horn arrangements on keys as well and a cellist. And then, we had the full band at the residency. And each time we do this Kirk, hand chart everybody's parts and reconfigures the entire Sonic landscape. So if you've gone to see us at, let's say each of those versions, you are seeing a completely different Sonic treatment to the record. And so that's been just awe inspiring to A, have someone that gifted. B, my collaborators. So that like every time we play people are like, "Wait, that's different than last time. And it's still that cool. But cooler in this way." And that I've never had that. And I love that he's a stickler for things changing and that doesn't want things to sound the same.
Rain Phoenix:
And wants every time for something to be nearly unsettling in that, you're not sure what's going to happen or what's that sound, where's it coming from? And what's funny is all the things he's like pretty sure will happen. We get that feedback after each show or someone will come up and go, "What's that thing that's doing that sound. And that one part." And he's like, "See, I told you."
Doug Burke:
One of my favorite instruments that I saw in your performance was, the tap dance percussion. And it sounded like rain drops on a window pane. And I was like, "Oh, Rain is playing raindrops." I thought that was really cool. I don't know if that's what you were going for. But tell me, how did that come about? Because when I think of tap dancing, I think of Shirley Temple and little girls. You don't think of a grownup, right?
Rain Phoenix:
I am definitely grown. Well, I'm very childish. I tapped as a child. I did all kinds of dance and I love tap dance. I tapped as an adult in a cabaret troupe I was in a New York city. And for some reason, that that song on the record does not have tap and we were getting ready for a residency shows with a full band. And for some reason, one day I was just like, I think I want to do-
Kirk Hellie:
I'm going to tape on it.
Rain Phoenix:
Yeah. I think I'm going to tap in the middle lane. I just feel like doing something rhythmic with my feet. It made me want to tap. And I just made up a little routine and I just started doing it rehearsals. I think all the band was like, "What the hell is going on?" It was definitely like, huh! But it feels so good to do. And I also, yesterday I forget who we were talking to and I said something like it's, it's a four Lauren tap dance. And they were like, "That's an oxymoron." Tap is like this happy-go-lucky jazz hands thing. And I was like, no, but the idea of ... It's really wild and I'll share it with you now. So the idea of doing a tap dance and the song, Time is the Killer about impermanence and how we're all afraid to die. And we need to talk about it more and what really is important. Is it important that you stay angry at someone and then regret if they pass that you didn't forgive them, like you were talking about. It's a lot of hetty subject matter, the actual lyrics, but for some reason it just felt totally right. And then, I went to a dance store to get my tap shoes, I'm vegan and I wanted to get a vegan pair and they had them at this one particular store. And I was practicing the routine there. And she was like, "Oh, you got the time step down." And I didn't know that I had choreograph this whole routine. And like the main part that I was doing was called a timestep for the song, Time is the Killer. But it was again, very stream of consciousness. I didn't do that intentionally. It was after the fact that I was told by a dance instructor that was at the dance place where I got my shoes, "You're doing the timestep."
Doug Burke:
And the timestep is when tap people want to keep in time with each other.
Rain Phoenix:
No, it's the actual dance part I do. The hop shuffle part of it. When you saw it. I'm doing different tap thing, routines within that short window. And one of the main things I do is called the timestep. It's like hop, shuffle, slap shuffle ball, change. Hop, shuffle, slap shuffle ball change, that's the time step. But I didn't know that. I just said it was perfect for Time is the Killer. And there's a lot of times happen there. And I really loved the tap, especially in the duo because, there's really nothing going. There's not a lot of instrumentation and you're able to hear that I did make it to create rhythm. Like there is no drummer, so it's like, it is a form of percussion that I wanted to add to it.
Doug Burke:
So, I watched the video, the first one that I believe you've released with the album directed by Gus Van Sant. Tell me about that, if you want to, the song behind that?
Rain Phoenix:
Yeah. Emily. Well, that was the first song we wrote together, for this project. And originally it was a pitch for another project, a TV show that actually got us the gig that we're going to eventually be doing music for. So we wrote the song together and as soon as we decided to do the record, it was like, we're definitely going to use that song. That song is really special and it's so specifically special about loss. And it's very, very personal and very deep. SAnd then Gus has been a friend and he's a good friend of River's. I was trying to include as many friends of my brothers in this record, so that it could be a group healing in a way.
Doug Burke:
Oh, interesting. And did they find it to help them?
Rain Phoenix:
Well, what was nice was that everyone immediately that I approached was like, "Absolutely I want to be involved." And I think that in itself was really all that I was meant. It was an offering of like, "If you want to be involved in this project that I'm honoring River, I would love for you to." And so everyone said, Yes.
Doug Burke:
Who would say no.
Rain Phoenix:
Well, it was just lovely and I love Gus' interpretation of it. And, the song is really special. And to me, can be for anyone. And I've lost many people in my life and so have you, and so is Kirk and so is everyone listening. So the idea with that song was to keep it as universal as possible. So no matter what you could put anyone in. You could listen to the lyrics and you could think about the person that you miss or thinking about, or that you lost and be able to experience some emotion about it. Because it is a very emotional song. I've had a lot of people say they cried and it was very deep for them. And that's really special because that's to me, what music is about, it has this power to really open your heart. And, that's what this record is about too. I always prefer meeting people and talking and getting very quickly, very deep in conversations, certainly about the softness that we all share. Because that's actually, I think who we are and we cover it all up by the day to day grind of life and trying to be cool and trying to be business like. Trying to do this or do that. When you can share a music that can bring people together around a theme that is universal, like grief and loss, and then hear their stories and/or just feel the difference in a room as a performer from when you started the set to when you finished the set. That's to me, my favorite thing about performing. Is that you have this opportunity to change the energy in a room and to include people in and to connect with people through music. It's a kind of therapy for everyone involved, the performer and the audience. And when that happens and it happens well, and you can feel that shift, it's priceless. Like I said to someone else, that's my favorite drug like. It's my drug of choice, is what I said to someone yesterday. And it really is. It's one of the greatest feelings because you're not alone. And it doesn't mean you have to know everybody personally, or everyone has to share their story. And grief is a very private thing. And I certainly feel that way about it. So it's not so much about having to expound about it. But in that moment that we all share through music or through one of our sets and through the way that we are honoring not just the people we've lost. But the people in the audience, it's this incredible opportunity to change the energy in a group, without words. It's like through melody. And I am a huge fan of that. So I'm so glad that you get it. And I'm so grateful that you asked us to be a part of this podcast. I love that you go deeper into the heart of songs. And this project is super important to both of us. So thank you for having us on.
Doug Burke:
Thank you for coming. You moved me. I felt a real sense of community, a communal feeling, if you will, being in the audience when I heard you guys perform. And, there's just a powerful empathy in your music and compassion. And just feelings that helped me. Then you did make me cry. My dad cried really easily and so do I. I'm starting to cry now. When a song writer makes me cry, I know they've written good songs.
Rain Phoenix:
Yeah.
Doug Burke:
I think that is a -
Rain Phoenix:
I agree. I feel the same way, right?
Doug Burke:
Same.
Rain Phoenix:
Yeah.
Doug Burke:
Yeah. So thank you. Thank you, Kirk. Thank you, Rain.
Rain Phoenix:
Thank you.
Kirk Hellie:
Thank you.
