John Baumann Interview
Doug Burke:
John Baumann is a guitar playing, singer, songwriter, and Texas troubadour from San Antonio. A member of the Texas all star band, The Panhandlers, his newest solo album, Country Shade, deals with the changing state of rural America, the passage of time, and how it affects our relationships. Country Shade is John's third solo album, and the songwriting reflects a maturation as a songwriter that I hope the Back Story Songwriter listeners are going to enjoy. Welcome to Back Story Song. I'm your host, Doug Burke and with me today I have John Baumann. John, you're from Texas originally, right?
John Baumann:
Yes, Texas born and Texas bred.
Doug Burke: We're going to talk about some of your songs here today and I guess some of them actually relate to Texas. The first one we'd like to talk about is Country Doesn't Sound The Same. Tell us about this song.
John Baumann:
I wrote this song at the tail end of 2018. When I write typically, I fumble around on the guitar until I hear something that piques my interest if you will. It's a very simple song musically, but I just found this rolling finger pattern that I liked. I think the mood of what comes from the sound you're making on the guitar indicates the kind of song you should write. I was feeling something heavy, touch somber, touch reminiscent/ nostalgic. It's probably my favorite song on the record. I like it a lot because... I hate to overuse the word clever but I feel like using the word country in three different contexts was clever, not to pat myself on the back too much or anything. I just thought it was... I know it's probably been done a time or two but I just hadn't heard it. So I felt like it was something I should run with.
Doug Burke:
Yeah, that's the hook line. Country Doesn't Sound The Same, the title of the song.
John Baumann:
Yes.
Doug Burke:
Country meaning the country around where you were growing up. It's a song about development right? Or the change in America?
John Baumann:
Absolutely, both of those things. The first verse talks about the state of the change in country music you hear on the radio, which is an overused topic. People are always upset about the way mainstream country sounds. The second verse talks about overdevelopment of rural land and finally, the state of the country that we live in.
Doug Burke:
Yeah, it that gets heavy there at the end in some respects, but you start on your porch. Listen to your dad's stereo. FM radio, some people still listen to that, don't they?
John Baumann:
They do.
Doug Burke:
Thank goodness. It has an interesting guitar pick and organ intro. Is it an organ? What are the instruments there on that?
John Baumann:
At the beginning of the song, you hear the guitar, this rolling picking sound, and then you hear some steel. The steel is just reverberating, if you will constantly make an ethereal sound so it does sound like an organ.
Doug Burke:
Wow it fooled me. It's got this lonesome yearning sound that clearly sets the mood and communicates in a motion.
John Baumann:
I think that's what we were going for. Steel always spoke to me because it doesn't really need a show off like an electric guitar does in a way. It can just exist but doesn't have to be the focal point. It complements songs well and lyric heavy songs well so I'm always eager to have it on songs when it makes sense.
Doug Burke:
What I really like about the song is that you have three different courses, but the same hook line.
John Baumann:
I just felt like that hook line was something that you might say to a guy at a bar, or you're passing somebody at the gas station and they're complaining about this and the other guy goes, "Well country's not the same way as it used to be." It's just a common American colloquialism if you will. Just tied it into different little narratives or vignettes. One of my favorite things about songwriting is painting three different pictures and tying them all together. It's like a math reading comprehension question combination.
Doug Burke:
Is this about a particular place or is this generally about what's going on anywhere in America?
John Baumann:
It definitely comes from a particular place but I think that's one of the beautiful things is if you can get it to where someone else can agree with you or latch on or identify with. It's part of the goal of writing a song is getting someone to identify with it. The second half of the goal's hopefully it's a song that they like, the way it sounds, the way you sing it, et cetera. But in this case, I'm talking about my family land. It's my grandmother's land, but it's been passed down a couple of generations, and it's about 35 minutes southeast of Austin near Lockhart, Texas. It's a pretty large spread of muskie and black land, it's nothing too pretty. But over the last 10 years, encroachment from mobile homes, gas stations, even a landfill, which is a controversial thing for anybody who lives near a landfill. It's a little bit of a protest towards that growth and development.
Doug Burke:
I really like the concluding part where I fear we're living in the strangest of times where no matter where you stand, you're always on opposing sides.
John Baumann:
Right.
Doug Burke:
I mean, it seems like there's a lot of that going on in the world right now.
John Baumann:
Yeah, it's funny. I had originally written the line to be, where the people in DC don't seem to have a spine. It just felt like it came down a little too hard and right there, you're losing half your audience or 60% or 40% or whatever. So I backpedaled from that, but that was the original line. Even when I was singing it, it felt a little bit too... Like it cut a little bit too much. But I always like going right down the middle of things, never being too far to the left or too far to the right. Not just politically but...
Doug Burke:
You're trying to say, can't we come together here? What's happening to middle America? And the middle is getting lost.
John Baumann:
Yeah, that first lands a little heavy but I think the sentiment of it is obviously it's not to go one way or the other too hard and that it's okay to be down the middle or we should maybe work to get back to the middle. There's a bit of understanding or bipartisanship, if you will.
Doug Burke:
I like the word nostalgia. I didn't think of that but that's a great description of this song. It's got a real nostalgia and I really love the harmonica ending.
John Baumann:
The harmonica is a sweet relief or it's an explosion of relief if you will. Something releases when you hear that. It's like the pain is released. That's what I always thought of. But yeah, nostalgia is one of my favorite themes, not just in music, but in life, because everything's so great and beautiful and sunny when you look back on it. The good times, if you will, they're wonderful. I think about this quite a bit, especially the last couple days because I was thinking I really do write a lot of nostalgic songs but it's one of my favorite human emotions that you can have.
Doug Burke:
Yeah, it's very interesting. The past always seems better, especially the hard times that you survived. You look back and you're like, "I wasn't so bad or something."
John Baumann:
You're exactly right. It's funny how the human mind works like that.
Doug Burke:
Yes, it's like, I got through that. It wasn't so bad.
John Baumann:
It wasn't so bad.
Doug Burke:
Team miserable at the time. Get through this corona situation, it might not seem so bad.
John Baumann:
Right.
Doug Burke:
Country doesn't sound the same. Anything else you want to tell me about this song?
John Baumann:
I'm just proud of it. It's a song that I feel I'm excited to play for my career. I don't know if when I'm doing this in 20 or 30 years if people are going to be asking for that song but it's a song I enjoy playing. It's a song I believe in and there's a reason why I put it as the first song on the record even though it's not a sing along or a rock and roll song.
Doug Burke:
The new records Country Shade?
John Baumann:
That's correct.
Doug Burke:
How many albums do you have out?
John Baumann:
This is my third full length album and I have two EPs out so third album.
Doug Burke: It's a lot of work out there.
John Baumann:
There's probably 50 or so songs I've given to the world if you will.
Doug Burke:
Next song on the new album that we want to talk about is Daylights Burning.
John Baumann:
There's a songwriter named Drew Kennedy. He lives in New Braunfels. He's a really fantastic songwriter for your audience who's not aware of him. I'm sure some of them are. This was the very last song that made it to the record and I was really, really having a hard time writing and I usually don't. When I'm really focused I don't have a hard time but I needed some help. I called Drew and Drew came up to my house and honestly wrote the song in probably four hours. I originally had a different idea for it. Same title, but different idea. We just worked through it. We found an interesting tuning on the guitar, a tuning that's totally unconventional, it's not a standard.
Doug Burke:
What is it?
John Baumann:
I don't know what the name for it is, but it's a E B F sharp, B F sharp, B C sharp so it's different.
Doug Burke:
We'll give that tone name, we'll call it the Baumann tuning-
John Baumann:
The Baumann tune and The Daylights Burning Tuning.
Doug Burke:
Daylights Burning Tuning.
John Baumann:
Yeah, we wrote this song and it's about... Not so much identified with it. I just felt it was a good song. It's about a guy talking to another friend. Two dudes on the back porch and one of them is going through a heartbreak. There's another guy that's just telling them you just going to have to deal with this. I had a really hard time using the word sucks in the songs. That's not what I do.
Doug Burke:
It is the signature line of the song. When you hear that, but this sucks for you. Yeah, I liked her too. Everybody has said that.
John Baumann:
Exactly.
Doug Burke:
Yeah, everybody has felt that. You don't hear that on the radio a lot. But people say it every day it seems like. It's such a... This sucks for you.
John Baumann:
That's exactly what Drew... Because Drew had to convince me. Those were his exact words. Verbatim pretty much. These are things you actually say to people. This is what you say to your buddy over... After your 8th beer on the back patio man. Dude, she's gone. I'm sorry. This sucks for you. I had a hard time with that because I grew up in a house where sucks was a bad word.
Doug Burke:
Me too.
John Baumann:
Looking back, I'm glad it made it and it's funny you mentioned that.
Doug Burke:
I really like that part of the song because I think that's where you bring in the harmonies, right?
John Baumann:
Yes, that's a man named Wes Hightower who actually lo and behold sings with George Strait when George is out touring. I've used him on the last couple of projects. He's a phenom.
Doug Burke:
It's just great because it's such a message line in the song and then you have the second harmony of that in this Baumann key coming through. It just grabs you.
John Baumann:
I'm glad to hear it. I'm really glad I called Drew to help me because I was in a tough spot creatively.
Doug Burke:
Is this about a girl? This is a breakup recovery song with a buddy?
John Baumann:
This is 100% a breakup song, and it's two dudes talking on the back porch late at night and one just consoling the other in a brotherly fashion. I can't relate to it, not now. 21, 20, 19, 18, 17 year old me absolutely can relate to it, but 32 year old me it's a person I can't really remember. But I know we've all been there. There's the universality of it.
Doug Burke:
Every inch of distance east to west shaves an ounce of weight off your chest. What does that mean?
John Baumann:
This is where I'd like to phone a friend, Drew Kennedy, co writer. I think what he's talking about and what we're talking about there is the idea of removing yourself from sad person situation breakup. The farther you get away, the easier the weight of the emotion gets to deal with or it lessens if you will. But it's only an ounce. It's not like it's so painful. It's only a little bit.
Doug Burke:
Yeah, it's not as big, it's not as weighty.
John Baumann:
It's not like “oh, I drove to the west coast and forgot about you.”
Doug Burke:
I really like at the end when you go, “but the world is turning and daylight's burning”, when you go up an octave on that and then you come back down when you say it again. It's just really a nice song writing touch. All these subtleties in your songwriting like that that I just love.
John Baumann:
Well, thank you so much. It's so kind. It was nice to be able to get close to hitting that note, but I have to say, again, Drew really helped me with the song and I'm a guy who writes almost 100% entirely on my own, but I was really grateful to phone a friend.
Doug Burke:
Well, he's the one who told you there's a reason your windshield is bigger than your rear view.
John Baumann:
That's correct.
Doug Burke:
That reason is you got to keep looking forward.
John Baumann:
Absolutely. The more I think about it, that should be a bumper sticker because it's just sound life advice. It's crazy.
Doug Burke:
Isn't it?
John Baumann:
It really is.
Doug Burke:
I love that line. That's for me other than, this sucks for you. Yeah, I liked her too. That's fine unless he starts going out with her.
John Baumann:
Yes, then we have a problem.
Doug Burke:
I like the whole notes of this song, especially in the beginning. A lot of guitar picking. Especially in this, you had really nice steel guitar licks in between the courses.
John Baumann:
We had a really great team working on this record. We had a really great producer. The producer is a guy named Justin Pollard and he's been my right hand man, mentor, go to guy. Three in the morning and we don't have hotel rooms. What do I do? He's been my guy, so kind of a pseudo manager and producer over the last five years. He produced the record and then we had a bunch of guys from the Texas music scene playing on the band. We flew in Doug Pettibone who played with John Mayer and Lucinda Williams to play on the record. He was a riot. Just hilarious and brilliant, and some of my peers and guys I've worked with over the years in the studio. It was a lot of fun.
Doug Burke:
Next Song I want to talk about is Fool's Crusade.
John Baumann:
Yeah.
Doug Burke:
Again a haunting ethereal deal guitar on this one, huh?
John Baumann:
Yeah, there's some organ peddling in this one for sure. When I wrote this song I really thought this is one of the best songs I've ever written. I can't say now being removed from the album, six weeks, seven weeks removed. I don't know if this song has landed the way I thought it might. That being said, when I wrote it, I felt really good about it. Really this song is, for me, it's a declaration of love. It's really a dedication to my wife if you will. Just a man who is completely crazy, foolishly, desperately in love with someone. It doesn't matter what lengths or to what level of insanity or what they have to steal to do.
Doug Burke:
I think writing a love song is really hard.
John Baumann:
I agree. I don't do it very much.
Doug Burke:
You don't do it very much. Some people do it really well and easily. I think it's hard to write a great love song. Here you got a great love song. How long did it take you to write? You're inspired by your wife, right?
John Baumann:
This did not take a long time. This is a song that was written over the course of four or five hours, which is good for me. Really good.
Doug Burke:
So you're done with the song and you play it for your wife, how does she react?
John Baumann:
I actually don't do that. I'm a little timid, a little shy. We've been married for 10 years. We've known each other for 15. But I'm just a little... I don't know stage fright is the word but I've always been a little timid and a little shy about performing because I don't know if I need the eyes on me, or the ears on me, or my brain will start going a million miles an hour like, "Okay, you'll flat that note." It's just like I go to panic town. I never do that.
Doug Burke:
This is the first time your wife is finding out this is a love song about her.
John Baumann:
It feels a little funny to walk up to someone or to your wife and be like, "Hey, this is a song I wrote for you baby." This girl knows everything about me. She knows the good, she knows the bad. It's not like I can do anything to make it better or worse.
Doug Burke:
She never asked you, "Did you write Fool's Crusade about me?" She’s never like... You guys never talked about this.
John Baumann:
No.
Doug Burke:
But this is a love song that you wrote about her. This is the first time, on my podcast, that she's finding this out.
John Baumann:
This would be the first time I've audibly said it. I made an Instagram post a few weeks ago when the record came out and I basically said, “thank you to my wife Alyssa, track five is for you.” Other than that it has not been a conversation though.
Doug Burke:
But you never played it in front of her and made her cry? I always thought that would be like the dream of being a songwriter. Write a great love song, play it for your wife and man you're set. What more could a girl want?
John Baumann:
My wife always says, "I thought this was part of the deal with you being a songwriter is that I'd get to hear you play your songs more and things like that." I'm just wired a little differently.
Doug Burke:
I get it. Everybody's different. I'm always interested in how the songwriters, it's never been what I've expected. I've always been wrong in my assumptions on this question, on a love song but it's a beautiful love song. One of the things I love about the song, Fool’s Crusade, the hook line, of course is rhymed with blockade, cascade, motorcade and parade.
John Baumann:
Yes.
Doug Burke:
You have these beautiful rhymes along each verse and then there's some sort of semi biblical imagery. There's the heavens cascade and the holy parade. Tell me about that.
John Baumann:
Thanks for noticing and that's such a great question and I appreciate that very much. I think of what true beauty is and imagine a waterfall in heaven. It's just hard to top. The exact line is actually escaping me right now.
Doug Burke:
The Heavens Cascade, you can't step a fool on a fool's crusade.
John Baumann:
From down in Death Valley to Heavens Cascade, now I got it. Okay. It's just the juxtaposition. Death Valley I think I equate it to hell. It's hot. You're not going to survive for an hour out there in the desert. That's the worst that can be. I still go. Heavens cascade, the most beautiful place. I'm going. Just a juxtaposition. I have a line about the motorcade and-
Doug Burke:
“I would take the bullets for your motorcade. You can't stop on a fool's crusade.”
John Baumann:
Right, just a strict... Obviously at Dealey Plaza, JFK November 63 reference. I'm foolish enough to get in front of those bullets, I'd love you not to get in front of those bullets. It's just desperation. It's really, really fun to... Or it brings me joy as a writer to make rhymes work. They might be a little bit on top of each other but finding those what I would consider a great rhyme work is just like I feel so good.
Doug Burke:
That's a deep love man. You'd steal a Vincent van Gogh or a work of Monet, Rob steal kill for you baby. It's just such a... I really love this song if you don't know that already.
John Baumann:
Well, thank you Doug. I appreciate it. I love the song too. You have a really nice shimmering, howling ending there on this. It's going to get cut off when people play it on the radio. It's just pedal steel with a lot of delay and effects going on and I actually videoed Doug Pettibone doing it. It's one of those things to watch. Just move something inside of you. You know that feeling when your chest is swelling and moving around and-
Doug Burke:
Yeah.
John Baumann:
Which is a crazy awesome feeling.
Doug Burke:
I was listening to that and I was like,” How did they create this? How did you create that? How did Doug create this?”
John Baumann:
He's just on a pedal steel, he makes a noise on the steel and then he reaches down and he just turns the knob over and over again and then hits it again and turns another knob.
Doug Burke:
It's cool, as all get out. Next song I want to talk about is Second Wind from the album.
John Baumann:
Second Wind is a song that originally I always joked that I'd call myself the Second Wind when I'd go to a party or something like that and the party was a winding down. The more I thought about it, I was like, there's something to that idea. I think we all go through periods of burnout with everything. I'm no stranger to burnout with music. The song is really just about dealing with your expectations. Where you saw yourself five years ago and maybe you're not there, or you're burned out from something and you just need some to keep pushing you forward. You talked to your brother, you pray and nothing seems to come easy for you. That's the basis of the second one. Just saying I could use a little help.
Doug Burke:
Yeah, you got a lot of great lines in this one. I got to say, “I would call out to God, but I forgot how to call. It's been so long I doubt he'd know my voice anymore.”
John Baumann:
One of the few lines on the record that doesn't rhyme with each other actually but-
Doug Burke:
I know, I love that. I wrote that down. It's a non rhyme.
John Baumann:
Yeah and that's part of my growth as an artist is to step out of my comfort zone a little bit more. It happens only one time on this record. Yeah, there's some religious feeling there. Sometimes it feels like you're praying or asking for help from above. It's like you're talking to an empty room, or just talking to yourself.
Doug Burke:
Yeah, He doesn't call back all the time does He? The personification in this line. I took a look at the moon standing over the shore. I heard the ocean breeze whisper to me. Are you ready for more?
John Baumann:
There's a little bit of tongue in cheek for me personally there. I had a song recorded by Kenny Chesney two or three years ago, and I was riding high from that.
Doug Burke:
You thought you were going to make it?
John Baumann:
Honestly, that's the biggest goal for me is to have songs recorded by big artists. That was like... We hit a really nice spot with where I want my career to go. Then maybe six months, nine months later is like I don't know if that really has moved the ball forward for me in some ways. I was going through some burnouts and band turnover. Tough times on the road, small crowds. So really, the song that I wrote is called Gulf moon. The tongue in cheek if it is I take a look at the moon. It's really more for me than for anybody else.
Doug Burke:
You giggle when you play this on stage or smile to yourself? Find a second wind. So, John, if there's any song that you've written and you could pick the ideal voice to record it, what song would that be?
John Baumann:
What a great question. That's a really difficult question to answer. I think a guy like Jake Owen would do a lot of justice to a song of mine and I'm blanking on which one but maybe a song on the new record called homesick for the heartland might be a possibility. But if I'm aiming high, I want Bruce Springsteen to sing a song I wrote called Pontiacs from my last record, but that's probably a bridge way too far.
Doug Burke:
You never know. My goal is that someone will get this to Bruce and he'll play it. I'm looking at Spotify and your most popular songs are Midland, Next Ride Around The Sun, Homesick For The Heartland, Bible Belt, Loves A Word I Never Throw Around. You want to talk about any of these with me? We kind of got some more time.
John Baumann:
Sure I'd be happy to. Midland's without a doubt my most streamed song far and away. I went to school in Fort Worth Texas, a school called TCU. Felt very out of place for a while there. It's a nice college. I'm not a wealthy person by any means and I don't come from wealth but felt a little uncomfortable there with all the wealth that was around. There was a girl I was fond of. She wasn't very fond of me for whatever reason, but after I graduated, I moved home. I wrote that song in 20 minutes about her. I think it really resonated in a lot of places.
John Baumann:
Really, I'm just... I don't want to say “making fun” but I'm pretty close to making fun of a just high society if you will. People love it. It's really strange. All walks of life love that song. It's one of the very first songs I recorded. I sing a little differently, really didn't know how to sing at the time but lo and behold, it's a song we have to play every show.
Doug Burke:
You play in the beginning or the close? Where do you put it in your set?
John Baumann:
I put it towards the end. But it's a simple song, it's not like it's a rock and roll song. I could have kept those lyrics and put it to a better piece of music or a more interesting piece of music. It might be even more popular of a song but it is what it is.
Doug Burke:
Most popular on Spotify. I think your fans like it. Sometimes simple is beautiful.
John Baumann:
Yeah, and simple works for me. My musical tool shed is not the most extensive so. What was the next one, Homesick For The Heartland? That song just came out with the record recently.
Doug Burke:
It’s on Country Shade, right?
John Baumann:
It’s on Country Shade. I think people are taken to it. It's hard to really tell in the world right now without going and playing in shows and talking to people after the show to know what they think of the record. Because they'll tell you, they'll come up to the merch booth and say, "I like these songs. This one I'm not so sure." But it's a really good way to get upfront opinions. It tells you a lot more than... Spotify listens tell you, but sometimes you just go out and talk to people and they really tell you what they think. But then no two people's opinions are the same a lot of times.
Doug Burke:
How do you know when a song is done when you're writing it? I know they're all different. Sometimes they're done easily, quickly, and sometimes you have to work on them for a long period of time.
John Baumann:
It's hard to know when it's really done. I think you got to just trust your gut and say, I feel good about this. I'm ready to go with it. You can always rework it. Sometimes that's the best thing you can do. Sometimes that's the worst thing you can do. It's really hard to tell. It's like you got to trust yourself. There's been times where I've had a song I think was good, and then I've redone it and I made it so much better. There was a song where I thought it was good and I've redone it and made it worse and I wish I had never touched it. They all have their own life and they all have their own story and how they come and what they could be, but maybe they don't get there because they weren't executed to the best of your ability or you got distracted by something in the song. They're all so different, it's crazy.
Doug Burke:
When did you start writing songs and why did you start writing songs?
John Baumann: I started writing songs when I was 14. I'm 32. I was a sophomore in high school. I was playing high school football, and I had torn my leg in a football drill. Tore my ACL, meniscus patella was torn up. I was at home on crutches for two or three months. There was a guitar in my sister's room. I just pulled it out and picked up a Barnes and Nobles book Guitar For Dummies and started learning the basic chords but that was when I started writing songs and these were hokey songs. I think the very first song I ever wrote was called Street Light Singer. The second song I wrote was called Tiny Texas Town. Very silly. Not a whole lot going on with depth but that was so long ago. Then there was a giant gap between... college, I barely touched a guitar. When I graduated, and I moved home, and I got my first job. I moved to Austin. I really got into it then. I was like, I'm all in, I'm dedicating my life to this.
Doug Burke:
This is what you're going to do?
John Baumann:
For sure.
Doug Burke:
We’re grateful you made that choice and we're thankful that you came on Back Story Song. I'd like to thank you. Is there anyone you'd like to thank? Is there anything you want to plug? I know we're not touring much these days with the pandemic going on. But besides Country Shade, which everybody should listen to on Spotify or buy a copy of.
John Baumann:
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. You know what, if anything, if you like what you hear, tell a friend or tell two friends, pass the music on if you can because I think word of mouth for songwriters and for grassroots musical enterprises, word of mouth is so powerful. So just maybe tell a friend or two if you like something.
Doug Burke:
Well, I got to thank you, John Baumann. The album is Country Shade. The rest of your work is also wonderful. Listen to it on Spotify. Got to thank DJ Wyatt Schmidt, you're always the best too and my social media director Cameron Grace. I also got to thank one of my top fans, Barry Witco, thank you for the iTunes like and the nice note. Really grateful for all of our fans' support. Thank you very much.
