Allen Reynolds Interview
Doug Burke:
Allen Reynolds has had a legendary career as a performer, songwriter and producer of songs over six decades. A member of the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame, Allen began his career in the legendary Sun Studios of Sam Phillips in Memphis, where he and Dickey Lee wrote Memphis Beat for Jerry Lee Lewis. He went on to write 17 top 40 hits. His collaborations as both writer and producer of Don Williams and Crystal Gayle transformed their careers and catapulted them both to stardom. His magic in the production room led to him becoming the go-to producer for Garth Brooks, Emmy Lou Harris, Kathy Mattea, Chris LeDoux, Hal Ketchum and many others. Allen Reynolds artistic contributions to the American musical lexicon are vast and expansive, and it is a thrill to have him on Backstory Song.
Welcome to Backstory Song. I am thrilled and honored to have Nashville Songwriter Hall of Fame member And legendary producer, Allen Reynolds, on the show here with us today. Allen welcome.
Allen Reynolds:
Hi, how are you doing Doug? Nice to be here.
Doug Burke:
So, Allen, you Started in Memphis in the legendary Sun Studio's with Cowboy Jack Clement and grew up in that area, right?
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah.
Doug Burke:
So tell me, when did you start writing songs and why did you start writing songs?
Allen Reynolds:
When I was in public schools, I had melodies running around my head and just vaguely thought about writing music. But I thought you had to be more musically educated than I was. I thought you had to be able to write it down in script. So, I never did anything. And then I met Dicky Lee and joined his band, really. He was writing songs and he didn't know how to write them down. And as naive as I was, I thought, "Oh," so I started writing songs. In my high school time, I had bought a second hand guitar and then I was learning some chords from the older brother of a classmate. Just as I was starting college, I had asked that classmate, he played upright bass, and I asked him if he would teach me how. I don't know why, because I didn't have a bass and I didn't have the wherewithal to acquire one, but I, somehow in my mind thought I might be able to join a band and then do some gigs and earn a little money. So about the second time I went to his house for a lesson, he said, "Hey, I've been playing in this old band. And they're rehearsing out at Memphis state and I can't go. Why don't you go in my stead, you can take my base. And I said, "Man, I don't know enough to do that." And he said, "That's how you learn." I went out to Memphis state with the borrowed base and, and the guy was Dickey Lee and his little band. We just kind of hit it off. And he was wanting to make a record. And I said, "Would you like to have some background singers? I could put a group together." And he said, "Yeah." So I got a couple of fraternity brothers. We became Dickey Lee and the Collegiates. I never did learn to play bass, by the way.
Doug Burke:
So what did you do in that first gig? You played guitar and the Collegiates, you're listed as guitar and tenor on one website.
Allen Reynolds:
Oh, really?
Doug Burke:
For Dicky Lee and the Collegiates, yeah.
Allen Reynolds:
I really actually never played in his band, I strummed the guitar. I hesitate to say I play one, but I sang. As just part of that group and Dickey and I got to writing songs and became close friends. And eventually we started hanging out at first of all, at WHBQ radio station in Memphis because this crazy wonderful disc jockey named Dewey Phillips liked us and we would go down and rehearse in the production room of WHBQ at night. Dewey got Sam Phillips who was no relation, to come listen to us one night and Sam was real nice, but he came over the talk back and said, "Boys, I think you're doing okay, but I don't think you're ready yet." So we went ahead and cut a record there in the production studio, which got picked up by a small independent label. And it went to number two in the local charts, second to Elvis Presley. And so we thought we were really happening, but it was-
Doug Burke:
And what was that song called?
Allen Reynolds:
It was called Dream Boy.
Doug Burke:
Dream Boy, sure.
Allen Reynolds:
A song Dickey wrote. Anyway, it was strictly local, but we thought we were starting to happen. And we spent the whole summer after my freshman year in college, rehearsing most all the time and doing a few gigs. Eventually we did get signed to Sun Records and that's where I met Jack Clement and Dickey and Jack and I became lifetime pals.
Doug Burke:
Wow. Cowboy Jack Clement. Did they call him Cowboy Jack back then or?
Allen Reynolds:
Well, yeah. Well, Dickey and I kind of gave him that name because while we made a funny tape in a studio Jack was a partner in, and after he left Sun Records and we were just a takeoff on a show called the Wayne Rainey Show, which came over WCKY in Cincinnati. And we just made this funny tape just to send up. And in that tape, we were calling Jack Clement Cowboy Red River Sylvester, I think. Anyway, it was just a fun thing, but the nickname Cowboy just kind of stuck.
Doug Burke:
So you guys named Cowboy Jack Clement. That's amazing. I didn't know that. That's not documented anywhere. It was, I think on Wikipedia, it says he got his name from his fraternity mates. We now have the truth on how he got his name. So you and Dickey wrote, I Saw Linda Yesterday and Memphis Beat and Jack Clement is credited with discovering Jerry Lee Lewis when Sam Phillips was on a trip to Florida. And is that accurate? That is accurate.
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah.
Doug Burke:
And so you guys write Memphis Beat, which he records, is that-
Allen Reynolds:
Right.
Doug Burke:
Tell me the history here. If I've got it correct from what I've read.
Allen Reynolds:
Dickey and I were writing for Screen Gems Publishing at the time through their Nashville office, though we were living in Memphis. People were talking all the time about that Memphis thing. One night I said, "We ought to write a song called Memphis Beat." And we were writing that night with our friend Milton Addington, Mit Addington. So we wrote that song and we didn't have anything to do with getting it to Jerry Lee. I guess our publisher did that, but he liked it and recorded it and ended up naming his band, the Memphis Beats.
Doug Burke:
It was later the theme song played by Keb' Mo' in the show.
Allen Reynolds:
Right.
Doug Burke:
Did you like that version?
Allen Reynolds:
I liked it. Yeah. It was a surprise, but I love Keb' Mo'. It surprised me, the show and the use of our song.
Doug Burke:
One day you heard it and you're like, "Hey, that's my song. I wrote that," decades later.
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah.
Doug Burke:
So this is about Memphis where you came from, right?
Allen Reynolds:
I was born in Arkansas, but I grew up in Memphis.
Doug Burke:
And the 44 School, which is the second line in the song. That's an elementary school in the area or a high school in the area?
Allen Reynolds:
You know, it was just a number we pulled out of there. I don't know.
Doug Burke:
It wasn't any particular school, but every school had a number, huh?
Allen Reynolds:
But it sang well.
Doug Burke:
So it's in this era that you write the song Five O'Clock World. Is this accurate?
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah. Dickey and I had spent a couple of years in Beaumont, Texas, with Jack Clement who had built a studio down there with a guy named Bill Hall. He wanted us to move down there and write songs, and so we did. We moved down there and spent a couple of years. Then we moved back to Memphis and signed a contract with Screen Gems that carried a small advance, but not enough to feed me and my family. So I took a day job with the First National Bank, now called First Horizon. So I was moonlighting the music for about five and a half years there. Wrote that song during that time. It was right out of my life. I got the melody first. And then one day I came home from work and seemed like I was ready to write those words. That's where the song came from.
Doug Burke:
Now you have said in another interview that you generally write the melodies first and every songwriter has their sort of own methodology. Some start with the words, some start with the melody. Some it comes to them in combination, I've learned. There's no rules, or rhymes or reasons for this, but is that accurate, that most of your songs start with the melody?
Allen Reynolds:
I don't know if most, but a good many of them have. And that may be because I just, I don't know what's behind that. It's just kind of how it happened with me. Five O'Clock World, the melody came to me just messing around in my writing room. And then it kind of was with me for the number of weeks until the moment happened. But that's been true with a few other songs that I've written. Sometimes everything comes together, the music and the lyrics. Sometimes you sit down with the title and start with that and work your way through. But some of my songs have come melody first. Dreaming My Dreams With You was such a song.
Doug Burke:
"Up every morning just to keep a job." This is like you thinking, "God, I'm tired of writing songs at night. And I've got to go to this National Bank to go work."
Allen Reynolds:
Oh yeah. It was totally accurate. That was a right out of my life, at that time. Like I say, I moonlighted the music and more than a few times I was up in a recording studio until the sun was coming up and made it home in time to shower and get to the bank to be at my desk at eight o'clock.
Doug Burke:
Then, "There's a five o'clock me inside my clothes." And that's so when you're at the bank, all you're thinking about is the five o'clock whistle?
Allen Reynolds:
I never did any job halfway. So I put my back into my work even at the bank, but it was never what I wanted to do. It was good for me, and I think it taught me a lot and I've never regretted it, but the song Five O'Clock World really was kind of an assertion of my real self, saying after I check out of work, it's my life and my world. And that's where I was happier.
Doug Burke:
I always love to talk with songwriters about the non-word sounds that come into a song. And this has yodeling in it, at least in the first version. Some sorts of yodeling. How did that come to you as you're singing the song? Did you run out of words to say, so you just fill in?
Allen Reynolds:
No. Actually, I had the song. When I finally had it written, just in singing it, that just kind of occurred to me one day when I was sitting there singing my song and I liked it. It was just kind of a hooky sound. Hal Ketchum later recorded that song in Nashville and had a good record on it in the country market. And he sang "Yoda lady". I didn't sing that. I just made some sounds and I liked the feel of that. And it just sort of seemed to... it was kind of a hooky little thing. And once I came up with that, "I thought this is a hit song."
Doug Burke:
You felt you had a hit there, huh?
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah.
Doug Burke:
And you did with The Vogues. Tell me about that. How did it get to The Vogues? A lot of people don't know who The Vogues are, perhaps.
Allen Reynolds:
When you write a song, you want to make a demonstration recording. So in the business, they call it a demo. Back then Dickey and I were writing for Screen Gems and we would write up a batch of songs and then come to Nashville on a weekend and demo the songs. And then the publishing company would use those demos to go out and present the songs to people and try to get them recorded. So we demoed the song in Nashville. The band was a group of guys who had been in Muscle Shoals with Rick down there, Rick Hall. And they had left Muscle Shoals and moved to Nashville and were kind of getting their feet under them up here. And the Screen Gems representative that ran the office here, hired them. We cut the song that day and I never heard of The Vogues, but the publishing company pitched it to this independent record company in this group up in Pittsburgh, I think, or Philadelphia. Anyway, they tried to cut it a couple of times and didn't feel like they hooked it. And they asked the publisher if they could have the demo track and they took my voice off and put their voices on. And I think they added strings. That was their record, but it was cut here in Nashville as a demo.
Doug Burke:
Most of the actual track was from your national demo?
Allen Reynolds:
Right? The guys that were playing on that were David Briggs, Norbert Putnam, Tripp Young, Matt Gaydon and Jerry Carrigan on drums.
Doug Burke:
Well actually some legends there, huh?
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah. Those are legendary players. I;d like to say they were in their early days of being in Nashville, and they were a perfect group for that song.
Doug Burke:
And so this goes to number four in the pop chart. It's your first sort of top 10 pop chart song, while you're working at the bank. How does this feel?
Allen Reynolds:
It felt great. It was very encouraging and I thought it might make me enough money to spring me loose, but it didn't quite do that, but it did give me a whole lot of confidence and it made me some money that was helpful eventually in making the shift from Memphis to Nashville.
Doug Burke:
So this song was later recorded by Hal Ketchum, as you mentioned, but also Julian Cope, Ballistic Kisses, Bowling for Soup. It was used in the movie, Good Morning, Vietnam. It was a theme song during the second season of the Drew Carey Show.
Allen Reynolds:
Right.
Doug Burke:
I know you didn't expect that when you wrote the song, but how do you feel about all those different interpretations? There's a lot there in that question.
Allen Reynolds:
I feel good about it. It's always encouraging when a song you write travels well, and this has been one of those songs.
Doug Burke:
What do you think of the Ballistic Kisses' version of the song?
Allen Reynolds:
I haven't heard that.
Doug Burke:
You haven't heard it. I'll have to send that to you. How about Julian Cope's have you heard his version?
Allen Reynolds:
I heard Julian's, yes. But not the Ballistic Kisses.
Doug Burke:
Now the Hal Ketchum one, did you produce that one?
Allen Reynolds:
I co-produced that with Jim Rooney. Hal came to us from Texas, the Austin area. He wanted to record it. He told me he had sung it in clubs down there. I never would have thought of pitching it to him. And I was a little skeptical about cutting it. I wasn't sure that it was the right thing for the market, that he was going to be presented to the country market, but he really wanted to do it. And I sure had no objection. I loved Hal's singing. I was surprised by it and really pleased. It's a bit slower than the original version. It seemed to suit him really well.
Doug Burke:
They went to number 16 in the country charts. So people liked it. This first phase of your career, you and Dickey and yourself on your own, wrote a bunch of songs that got recorded. I've Lived A Lot In My Time, Take Me Home, Johnny Cash, The Dodo, which I love, by Jumping Gene Simmons. And this is kind of like in that sort of Ray Steven's novelty song, Don't Want To Think About Paula with Dicky, Big Brother, Impressions by the Jones Boys, which was you and Dickey not being the Collegiates. You had to form a different thing called the Jones Boys. And that's a really great song that's out there. I don't think it's on Spotify, but you can find it on YouTube. Big Brother, The Moods Of Mary, like this body of songs that kind of get recorded, but not breaking through until Five O'Clock World breaks through, as your breakout song. Is that an accurate depiction? Some of those may have been before or after Five O'Clock World, but all those songs you wrote in this time period and some got recorded, were you thinking like this could be my break each time?
Allen Reynolds:
Well, I was always hopeful. A lot of these songs that you're naming were written during that period when I was living in Memphis and working for the bank and moonlighting the music, I was very naive about that. It was like when I first became acquainted with the music business, the most visible thing was cutting a hit record or being a recording artist. And I had always enjoyed singing and I enjoyed making records, but I'm so glad that I never succeeded in recording a hit record because I would have not had a happy life as a recording artist, I don't think. I'm much more introverted and I just don't think I would have... It's a tough life being a recording artist. I don't think I would have prospered in that role. But back during that time, we were trying to break out big. One opportunity to do that was by getting a hit record.
Doug Burke:
I've heard this from many of the song writers on the show. I can think of Kye Fleming and Kent Blazy and Even Stevens and Erin Barker, all of whom dabbled in performing on their own, and kind of realized it wasn't for them. And it's this hard vagabond life. And you always have to have a smile on your face, even if you don't feel the greatest, whenever you're talking to the audience and you're in these buses or cars.You're talking to the audience and you're in these buses or cars or vans for these long road trips between gigs and it takes a certain person to do that.
Allen Reynolds:
It really does.
Doug Burke:
Whereas the songwriting takes another kind of person.
Allen Reynolds:
I've always told people if you could make it work, that songwriting was the best gig in the business because you didn't have to have much equipment or anything. I mean, you really don't need anything. I've known people who wrote songs who didn't play an instrument and could barely sing at all, I've known people who had success as songwriters who could barely carry a tune. It's pretty remarkable, but mostly it's a lightweight kind of thing, you don't have to have much equipment, a guitar and had a little recording device of some kind that you can put ideas on is about all you really need.
Doug Burke:
So you moved to Nashville and you start co-writing with Cowboy Jack Clement, Bob McDill, Don Williams and one of the songs you write or gets recorded in '72 by Johnny Russell is Catfish John. This is a very interesting song to me because not only did it work for Johnny Russell, but Jerry Garcia of the Grateful Dead picked up on this song and has recorded 16 minute versions that are out there and it became kind of a staple of sorts for his Jerry Garcia band and incorporated in some Grateful Dead shows. And he sort of knew no boundaries in a lot of ways, both in life and his music, he didn't care about making a song for radio, for sure. And of all your songs, this one has, I'm not going to say it's an overt political commentary, but it's a story about a boy not listening to his mother's advice,
Allen Reynolds:
Right. I've always loved that song. And I met Bob McDill in Beaumont, Texas when I was down there and helped him make some demos, just some real simple guitar voice demos in the studio there. And then when Dickie and I went back to Memphis, I heard from Bob periodically, he would send up a few songs on a tape and we got one of them recorded by Perry Como, a song called Happy Man. Then Bob went off to the University of Texas and I still occasionally heard from him. Then he left there and joined the Navy and didn't get stationed in Millington just North of Memphis, Tennessee. You wouldn't think the Navy would have a base there, but they do. So we were again back in touch and he and I would get together occasionally to write songs. We wrote a song during that period called I Recall a Gypsy Woman that Waylon Jennings recorded that I've always been fond of. When I moved to Nashville, I recommended to Bob that he move up too. And shortly afterwards, he did move up here. Then Jack Clement decided after I was here for a couple of years he wanted to start a record label and he wanted me to run it. One of the first things I did was ask McDill to make an album and when he was getting ready to start work on that album, he asked me to come over and write some songs. So he and I ended up writing, I think, five of the songs on his album. And one of them was Catfish John. McDill's a reader and so am I so oftentimes when we'd get together to write, we'd just talk for a while, maybe we'd talk about some books or whatever. Anyway, one day we were meeting to write and he had this title, Catfish John, and we talked about it and he and I are both Southern boys and fond of the music that has come out of the Mississippi River Delta. We talked about the fact that we wanted to write a story song that didn't tell the story, but it implied a story, and that's what Catfish John does. That song reflects the South in which we grew up and it reflects the relationships that he and I both had with black people in our lives who met a great deal to us. And both of us as young kids wrestled with the prevalence of the dual standard and the segregation.
Doug Burke:
And the bigotry and prejudice?
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah, I mean, as a small child, I remember asking my mother, "Why do black people have to ride in the back of the bus?" And I remember going to a water fountain when I was at a department store with my mother and went over to get a drink and two white ladies came over and "Oh, honey, don't drink there," and it was the colored water fountain. And I didn't understand that, that didn't make any sense at all to me. So I could go on about the many experiences in my life where black people were the sweetest energy I was in contact with almost and yet they were treated as second class. It was always tough for me to make peace with that. All of those feelings are part of that song.
Doug Burke:
And so this sort of prejudice or bigotry is handed down to a certain extent from parents. And so the song says, "Mama said, don't go near that river, don't be hanging around old Catfish John." And yet the boy goes down to the river and discovers Catfish John is this wonderful guy to hang out with and a lot of fun. And I think for the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band and Jerry Garcia, this was a real statement that you should question some things that you were taught if they're not right and you should think for yourself.
Allen Reynolds:
Right
Doug Burke:
Did you have a Catfish John? Was there someone in yours or Bob's life that you guys had met?
Allen Reynolds:
Not precisely, but he was on amalgam of people. I'll tell you quickly an anecdote. When I was maybe seven years old, my mother decided one day to send me to town by myself on an errand. We lived about two or three blocks from the bus lines. She said get on the bus and get off at such and such department store carry out this errand And then she said, when you come out, you will want to cross the street and catch a bus on the other side of the street to come home. So I did as she instructed and got on the first bus that came, little understanding that each bus went to different destinations. I just got on the bus and directly I realized I was not going where I was supposed to go. I panicked, I kept looking out the window and not recognizing anything. And finally, I just got off the bus and I was in South Memphis in a semi industrial area that was entirely black. I had nothing in my pockets, not a penny. I had spent the nickel I had for the bus transportation to get home. So I'm standing on the street corner crying and not knowing what to do. This sweet black gentleman comes along and says, "What are you crying about honey?" And I explained my situation. And he said, "Well, no, you don't cry anymore. I'm going to stay with you. You need to catch the bus and then ask for a transfer," explained how I would get back home. So he stood there with me and he spent his own nickel for the bus and told the bus driver my situation and where I would need to go and saw to it that I got a transfer. And with that help, I got back home. I never knew that man, but he was as sweet and warm as my maternal grandmother was with me and for my life, I have loved him and remembered him and his sweet kindness to me that day. That's how I was always treated by black people. That's part of the dilemma I felt as a child.
Doug Burke:
Well, that man is the inspiration for Catfish John and in some ways that's a thank you note to him. In this era, you wrote perhaps one of your most monumental songs in terms of how it's been recorded and interpreted subsequently called Dreaming My Dreams With You.
Allen Reynolds:
That's right.
Doug Burke:
Tell me about this song. What does it mean to you?
Allen Reynolds:
That's another song that came to me melody first and I liked it and I filed it on a cassette and then I kind of forgot about it, some weeks went by and I was an emotional place at that point in time with regard to a number of issues. One morning, I sat down at my desk at the office and the first verse and chorus just fell out to that melody. And I still didn't recognize that as a melody that I had already filed, I found that a few days later when I was at home and how the whole wow there is. So anyway, the first verse and the chorus, that's how I felt that morning. And then I didn't write anymore for a while there, for about a month while I continued to wrestle with the emotional problems I was dealing with. And I decided that I needed to get out of town, go spend a little time at the beach and just get my thoughts together. So I left in the afternoon of a given day driving East and drove all night and watched the sun come up on the East coast. And I wrote the second verse as I drove. And it was really my response to the first verse and the first verse says, "I hope I won't be that wrong anymore, maybe I've learned this time. I hope that I find what I'm reaching for the way that it is in my mind. Someday, I'll get over you, I'll live to see it all through, but I'll always miss dreaming my dreams with you." And then the second verse that came to me was, "But I won't let it change me, not if I can, I'd rather believe in love and give it away as much as I can to those that I'm fondest of." So that was it. My first verse stated the situation and the second verse was my answer.
Doug Burke:
And it resolves it. You don't have to answer this, Allen, if you don't want to, but do you want to share what was bothering you that inspired the first verse?
Allen Reynolds:
It was several things. My marriage was foundering and then this label that Cowboy had started and asked me to run, we had discovered Don Williams, I had signed Don as a writer and then produced him as an artist and it was a big discovery that first album of his, it was really good and Don was really good and I thought this album, I'm going to love this album as much 10 years from now as I do today. But Jack, as much as I loved him, he was not a very good businessman and he had gotten into some financial trouble because he had decided to make a movie and he blew a lot of money doing that. And the label was in trouble, Don Williams had decided to leave the label. So I had Jack Clement on my mind and Don Williams and my marriage, I guess all three of those fans were pretty heavy for me, extremely heavy, I would say.
Doug Burke:
It would be for anybody, I think, who's going through that, a lot of weight on your mind.
Allen Reynolds:
So the song is not specifically about any of those things, it's just kind of the sadness I felt at that time, because I had committed heavily and invested myself in that label, believed in it. And when Jack started the label, he wasn't interested in just hit records, he wanted a sound. And when we delivered Don Williams, it didn't sound like anybody else or anything else in country radio. And so we had succeeded in doing what Jack wanted to do, but his mistakes and all business-wise had left us with very little hope. During that time, I signed Wayland Holyfield as a writer, Jim Rushing as a writer, Bob McDill had signed Don Williams, Dicky Lee were there and Jack Clement so we had a hell of a riding stable and all of that just kind of evaporated when Jack had closed the doors on the label.
Doug Burke:
Wow.
Allen Reynolds:
I was pretty bummed out.
Doug Burke:
This is a song of hope because of the second verse that you wrote in that drive to Virginia Beach, or was it Virginia Beach or was it just a beach in Virginia?
Allen Reynolds:
It was a beach in Virginia. It was actually Litchfield, I think, down near Pawleys Island.
Doug Burke:
You know what I love about this song, Allen, is the whole notes. So much of music can be, how fast can you play? And the elegance of this is that you can write great songs with whole notes I think.
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah. One of the biggest shortcomings in the music business for me is the anxiety of producers and artists who feel like they've got to fill every hole and make it as loud as possible in order to get your attention. And I have always had a different opinion. I've always respected the audience and thought they listen, they'll get it, you don't have to yell at them. And I love records that have space. The air, the space that send them is as beautiful to me as the notes that are played.
Doug Burke:
The Waylon version and the Crystal Gayle version I find to be really different. And you produced the Crystal version with this tinkling piano and whereas Waylons's is more guitar based. It's almost different sort of production in such a way that it makes the song new and different and fresh.
Allen Reynolds:
When you're working with an artist, your first effort is with a rhythm section because that's all you need really to lay a base for a singer to sing with. From that point, you're just to the singer's voice and to the way they feel the song/ I already was familiar with Waylon's version, of course, and it had come out as a single when Crystal and I cut it and she just loved the song and wanted to cut it, all the arrangement aspects are just reacting to her voice and her performance and anything that I could think of that might enhance that or frame it in a nice way. Plus always when you're producing, you're receiving brilliant ideas from the musicians you're working with. So on her record, I was working with Kenny Malone, the drummer percussionist, doing some overdubs and he had the idea for the bells that are kind of ringing in the background. So that was his idea and it sounded good to me. And that's kind of how you do producing, you have your own thoughts and ideas, but you have a lot of input coming if you invite it from the musicians that you're working with.
Doug Burke:
And that's how that Crystal Gayle version came out with that tinkling piano and the moody dreamy bells and the tinkling piano were contributed by the session musicians on that. And you being the artists that you are said, "That sounds great."
Allen Reynolds:
As the producer, I'm the ultimate say so, I either like that or I don't. But the musicians are wonderful the way they work. I could talk for hours about that and the gifts they bring, not only their skills at playing, but their ideas. As a producer, I'm always seeking those ideas and encouraging them, I'm open to them.
Doug Burke:
Now, I know your songs are like your children, it's impossible to say, what's your favorite. I've seen in an interview where you said if you had to pick one, this might be it. Of all the different versions that have been done, is it like your children, it's hard to say which one's your favorite of Dreaming My Dreams With You?
Allen Reynolds:
I'd have to say Waylon's, but there are many others. Patty Loveless did a version I just love, and Marianne Faithfull had a number one record in higher London. I think it did real well in England. Colleen Hewitt, an artist in Australia, had a number one record there. I loved them all, but I guess I would always be partial to Waylon because he's the one that first gave it life. And from that point on, it had his endorsement it was Waylon, he had given it the first embrace, which always helped carry it.
Doug Burke:
The way Waylon Jennings says, "Someday," it's a hook, you'll never forget it, you know?
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah. But Waylon was one of my favorite singers. I tuned into him when I was still in Memphis. I was really liking him. The first song of mine that he cut was a song McDill and I wrote, and I mentioned it earlier, it was I Recall a Gypsy Woman. McDill And I loved the song and worked hard on it, we got together several times to get that song where we wanted it and we could sing it to you, but Waylon sang it, he nailed it. I just can't begin to describe the feeling I had. I was there when he recorded it and at the time Waylon was encountering a bunch of flack from country radio stations and there were people on country radio saying he can't sing and there were people who thought he was kind of an upstart, he he had recorded MacArthur's Park and it was a beautiful recording, but he caught a lot of flack for that. And that's when he said in response that country is the singer, it's not the song, I'm country and I'm going to sing whatever I want to.
Doug Burke:
And he was right.
Allen Reynolds:
Anyway, prior to starting his record label, Jack was looking for a band for that label and he wanted a band that would really listen to the song when you presented it and not start playing before you even went through one time. Weekly, he would book his studio for himself and invite people to come over and play as he called it. One day, he showed up for that and he said, "I ran into Waylon last night and invited him to come over and play today." And I thought, oh wow, that's great. And I immediately was thinking, what song do I have that I can show him? Anyway, Waylon did come over and at some point he and Jack were upstairs in the studio and had two or three writers sitting around on the floor and I was hanging there for a few minutes and Waylon said, "I'll be right back," and got up to go somewhere and while he was gone, I started singing I Recall a Gypsy Woman and my songwriter friends were joining in with me and Waylon came back about halfway through the song and just froze, stood there and listened to the rest of the song. And he looked at Jack and said, "I could sing that song," everybody got up.... Jack said, "I could sing that song." Everybody got up and went downstairs to the studio immediately, and it was like Waylon was born knowing the song. And he sat down, and several others of us sat down with guitars, strumming along in the studio, and Jack kind of just slowly weeded everybody out until there was nobody in there but Waylon, his acoustic guitar, and a bass player and a drummer. And they cut I Recall the Gypsy Woman. When Waylon came in to listen to the playback, I was on the moon. I was so blown away with his singing of the song. He just breathed life into it. And as he and Jack were listening to the playback, others of us were standing back two or three feet. Waylon looked at Jack and said, "By God, I can sing, can't I?" And it just touched my heart. That great singer was so beat up, at that point, that he had to express that. And boy, did he sing it. But then the record could never get released because it was cut at Jack's studio without an RCA engineer, and RCA was a union shop. He also cut Good Hearted Woman that morning. And Jack tried to give these things to RCA. And they went, "No, we can't take them." We didn't have an engineer there. So Waylon went over to RCA and recut Good Hearted Woman. But he didn't recut Gypsy Woman because he thought he couldn't do it any better. And it was about two years later, and Waylon by then had won his freedom, and RCA was no longer under that union deal. And Waylon was over at the Glaser Brothers studio, making an album, with Jack Clement producing. And I was over there, hanging out, and had a chance to sing him Dreaming My Dreams. And he looked at Jack and said, "That makes me think of my brother." And he wanted to record it and did so immediately. And once again, he didn't have to be taught the song. It was like he just knew it. I wrote the words out, and he sang it, and it was that beautiful, delicate song, a performance that was so beautiful. And it turned out being the title song of that album, and he went back on the shelf and pulled the recording of I Recall a Gypsy Woman off. And finally it saw daylight on the same album. But Waylon's singing is like... It just breathed life into both of those songs. Blew me completely away.
Doug Burke:
But Don Williams and B. J. Thomas also recorded that.
Allen Reynolds:
Well, Don and I cut it afterwards because Waylon couldn't put it out. So it was just laying there. So Don and I cut it, and the template was very much Waylon's recording. Then it came out on Don's album, was not put out as the first single. Larry Butler pulled it off of there, and cut it on Tommy Cash, and put it out as a single. Now, on the one hand, it was nice, but on the other hand, it broke my heart because it was not comparable to Waylon's version or Don's version. But that's how that happened.
Doug Burke:
This is a song about a young man losing his virginity to a gypsy? Is that fair to say?
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah. Not necessarily a real gypsy, but a fascinating woman.
Doug Burke:
And it kind of weighs on his mind for the rest of his life, or at least to where he ends up in life. Can't stop thinking about it and that first experience.
Allen Reynolds:
McDill and I worked on that for a while. We both really liked what was coming, and we just didn't get in a hurry. I always enjoyed writing with Bob because he was that much of a craftsman. He didn't hurry to try to get through. He wanted it to be right.
Doug Burke:
I really like the... Is it a triangle? And the harmonica, and the counterplay between those supporting instruments in the song.
Allen Reynolds:
Well, after Waylon had recorded it, that scene occurred where he said that to Jack. Among the writers and friends that were there was a guy named Danny Flowers. And he said, "I could put a harp on that, if you like," and Waylon just put his arm around him and walked out in the studio with him, and they put that harmonica on it, which was beautiful. And then Susan Taylor, who had been Don Williams's partner in the Pozo-Seco Singers, was also there. And she said, "I could hear a triangle in just a couple of spots." And someone said, "I got one in my car." Brought them in, and she put those on, in just a few little spots. And that was it. And then Don Williams and I cut it, and we added strings, and when Waylon heard those he added strings to the original cut of I Recall a Gypsy Woman. And then his record was complete.
Doug Burke:
You're such an incredible producer. You started producing some of the Dickey Lee work early on. And what made you want to layer strings in on that song, as a producer?
Allen Reynolds:
I just thought they would sound beautiful. And they're not playing a lot of moving parts. They're just nice, beautiful pads, and they just sort of take the mood and enhance it and enlarge it. And they just kind of sigh and hum in the right places and just... They're not busy at all. They're just adding a nice cushion.
Doug Burke:
It reinforces the emotion of the song.
Allen Reynolds:
Absolutely.
Doug Burke:
Is it fair to say, in 1975 you released Wrong Road Again, a song that you wrote, which charts in the Top 10, at Number Six, on the Country charts, and that's kind of a breakout moment for the two of you?
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah. The first commission I had with regard to Crystal was to cut a single. With very little budget, we cut two songs in one session. One of them was Wrong Road Again. And one of them was When I Dream. We did two versions of When I Dream. We did one that day. And I loved that song so much that I wouldn't use it for a B side. So we pull something off the shelf that the previous producer had done and used that for a B side. After it started up the charts, then the record label wanted me to do an album. That's how we started.
Doug Burke:
Crystal Gayle and you had quite a collaboration. She is the youngest sister of Loretta Lynn, and had been signed to Decca Records, and sort of was perceived in the industry as this Loretta Lynn knockoff of sorts. Or they tried to give her material that was Loretta Lynn-like. And she hadn't discovered her own persona and voice until she met you, in some respects?
Allen Reynolds:
When I was asked to work with her, I was told she was Loretta's kid sister. The youngest of 13 children, I guess. Anyway, obviously, to me, the first assignment was to find the real Crystal Gayle, as distinct from her sister. So from the beginning, I was well aware of the fact that we did not need to be anywhere near the territory that her sister occupied. And it was not hard, because Crystal was, of course, her own person and was 13 years distant in age from her older sister. She loved her older sister, and had been on the road singing with her, but my job was to find her identity musically. So that's what we were after from the beginning. It was a wonderful collaboration. I just had the best time working with her, because she was such a good singer, and with really good musical instincts of her own. She's very different from Loretta. She's pretty shy, not nearly assertive in any way like Loretta, but a beautiful talent and a sweet person. We just worked together for nine or 10 years and had a great time.
Doug Burke:
Tell me. You wrote Wrong Road Again. What is the backstory of this song? Is it from any personal experience? Or-
Allen Reynolds:
That's a song I wrote when I was trying to quite a few things. I was trying to quit smoking, and I was trying to quit loving somebody, and there are things in life that it's hard to wean ourselves away from sometimes.
Doug Burke:
Yeah. We all make bad choices, and sometimes we can't get off that bad path.
Allen Reynolds:
Right. Yeah. I eventually did quit smoking, but it took a long time. Took too long.
Doug Burke:
Well, good for you, and good for us that you did. Grateful for that, to have you here, Allen. "I can't seem to learn not to love you." What a great opening line, huh?
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah.
Doug Burke:
Because we spend a lot of time in life trying to learn to love people. No one ever teaches us how to unlove people, huh?
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah, or unlove something. Like, in my case, smoking.
Doug Burke:
That's really funny because there's no reference to cigarettes in this. But that was what inspired it.
Allen Reynolds:
Uh-huh. An addiction is an addiction.
Doug Burke:
Yeah. Love can be an addiction too, can't it? I love the piano work in this. Where did that come from?
Allen Reynolds:
I asked Charles to play that very simple melody line. Again, just trying to keep some space in the record. There's not a drum kit on it. It's more percussion, hand drums. I still love that record because it has a lilt to it, and it has a lot of beautiful space and air.
Doug Burke:
Love the sort of tinkling scale at the end of the chorus, and the way the strings come in on this one, the way you produced it to reinforce the emotion. Those ideas that you come up with... It's just a natural instinct, Allen, that you have. I think when you have it the way you do, people don't realize that not everybody has this gift that you have for putting these things together in this way, like you describe. Because people like to fill space. Especially podcasters, with their voice.
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah. I mean, people have a fear or an aversion for stillness or silence that is puzzling to me. Because we notice things by way of contrast, and if everything is multi decibels, and no ups and downs, no breathing in there, no peaks and valleys, then it loses subtlety. It loses humanness, in my book. I know there's a place for certain kinds of songs and certain things that are rocking things. But even there, my favorite things have tended to be ones that had some space there. And Elvis Presley, the king of rock and roll, had a lot of space in those early records. It was as important as the sounds, in my opinion.
Doug Burke:
But you and Crystal go on kind of a run together. And two other songs that you recorded, Somebody Loves You and Ready for the Times to Get Better. Let's talk about Somebody Loves You.
Allen Reynolds:
That's another one I've kind of just always liked. I wrote it one evening at home, and I remember, when I had just a part of it, I left my writing room and went in to play it for my wife and asked what she thought of it. And she really liked it. And so I said, "Well, thanks," and went back and kept working on it. When I played it for Crystal, she loved it. So we put it on the list of things to record and ended up getting a pretty neat little record, pretty nice presentation of the song. It did well for her. It's just one of those little songs that every time I would play it for fellow songwriters or friends, that got a good reaction from everybody.
Doug Burke:
So was this inspired by your wife?
Allen Reynolds:
No.
Doug Burke:
So you wrote a song. "Guess who loves you? Somebody loves you." And you go play it for your wife. She doesn't say, "Is that about me, Allen?" Or-
Allen Reynolds:
I think really, at that time, it was reflective of my wife. There was no particular person that I was writing this about. It just-
Doug Burke:
Because you wrote a lot of songs about relationships and love. And I've talked a lot on the show about how hard it is to write a love song. So here you have a great, great love song that you've written. It's not inspired by someone? It's just generically about people being in love? It's a universal feeling that inspires it?
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah. Pretty much.
Doug Burke:
And how we're all seeking love, and it's nice if someone walks in the room and says, "Hey. I love you"? And it doesn't happen enough, right? In life.
Allen Reynolds:
That's true.
Doug Burke:
So this is a very different sound for Crystal Gayle. How would you describe this sound that you're creating with her, together, in the songs that you've written?
Allen Reynolds:
Well, it was country because Crystal was country. But it was also maybe a little folky. It was not beer hall or cheating kind of country. It was sweeter, I guess. I've never cut a cheating song on Crystal Gayle, or a drinking song, but I got pitched them all the time. And every time we would put an album out, I would buy a bunch of copies to give out to songwriters in hopes they would think of something, or write something, for Crystal that would be good. And I was amazed at how many cheating songs and drinking songs I got for this sweet, little, beautiful Crystal Gayle, who had no part of that in her image. But that would be one of the distinguishing things, probably, is that it was different from some things that were being offered, a lot of what was being offered, in country at that time. Again, my assignment was to help her find her own unique place.
Doug Burke:
Well, you didn't write it, but Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue is kind of a breakup song of sorts, isn't it?
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah. A wonderful song. It was huge for her. I'll tell you the story behind that. A year before that, we had cut a song called I'll Get Over You, which was her first Number One record. And it was written by Richard Lee. I had met Richard before he came to town. When he showed up in town, after he was through with school, he had that song with him. That time, I thought I was going to be a publisher, too. And so I was working with Richard as a writer. So we had a good record there, but then I decided I didn't want to try to wear both hats and be a producer and a publisher. So I set about helping Richard find a publishing home. And I sent that song, along with others, to two or three different publishers. Sent Richard. People would listen to a few bars of that song and hit fast-forward, which drove me crazy. But anyway, I ended up publishing that song because no one picked up on it. And Crystal and I cut it. And it turned out great. And the day we were putting the finishing touches on it, the head of the United Artist publishing company walked into the studio. I said, "Hello," and he said, "Who wrote that?" And I said, "Richard Lee, and I've been trying to help him find a publishing deal. You want to talk?" He said, "Yeah."
Doug Burke:
Guy in the right place at the right time. Huh?
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah. So he signed Richard Lee. And about a year went by. And Richard Lee's landlord, girl named Sandy Mason, was a friend of mine. She started saying, "You need to come out and talk to Richard. He hasn't had anything happen in a while here, and he's kind of down." And I said, "Okay." But I didn't get to it right away, and she was at me again. "You need to come out." So I said, "Okay, okay." And I went out to cheer Richard up, and we sat on the floor of Sandy's apartment and swapped songs for a while. And then he mentioned this song that his publisher was going to try to get mentioned this song that his publisher was going to try to get to an artist named Shirley Bassey. And I said, "Why aren't you singing?" And he sang Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue. I said, "Would you sing that again?" He sang it again. And I said, "Shirley Bassey, my ass, I want that song." And so, I showed it to Crystal when she and I got together next and she loved it as much as I did. We put it on our list to record and the keyboard player who we had been working with was Charles Cochran. Before we could do that session, he had a mini stroke, had some numbness in his right arm and right side of his face, and week or two before the session, I said, "Are you going to be all right to do that?" And he said, "Yeah, yeah, I'll be fine." And I thought, "Well, I don't want him to feel under pressure," so I hired Pig Robbins, Hargus Robbins, to be a second keyboard player because I'd been wanting to bring him in on some of Crystal's work anyway, so we showed that song to the band that day, and within minutes Hargus started playing that identity lick. And boy, the session just jelled immediately. We cut the song and it was the first time we rolled tape, third time through, we cut that song and that was it. I didn't change a note or anything. I added strings later, but that was it.
Doug Burke:
It's a that was it moment when you heard the piano line, that's it. Don't change a thing on that, that we're going with that, let's get the tape rolling, huh?
Allen Reynolds:
The whole band reacted to that and it was just immediately, so within no time we had our cut.
Doug Burke:
What's that feeling like, that, that's it, moment? How do you know? What do you feel inside to say, "That's it. We're going with that? That's it."
Allen Reynolds:
It's great. It's very exciting. It's happened to me. Well when Kathy Mattea and I cut the 18 Wheels and a Dozen Roses, it was the same way. It was less, maybe a half an hour. It was second or third time through with the band. The engineer and I were running tape, I pushed down on the talk back and said, "I think you need to come listen to that," and so everybody came in to listen to the playback and everybody agreed that was the cut. And Kathy said, "Well, that was easy. What are we going to do now?"
Doug Burke:
You wish they all were that way, huh?
So you wrote a song for Crystal that goes to number one, Ready For The Times To Get Better. Number one on the country chart, number three on the adult contemporary, four in Canada, the song goes on to be recorded by a ton of people. Did you know there's a Cantonese version out there?
Allen Reynolds:
No.
Doug Burke:
Yeah. They've translated it into a song called Mayflower in Cantonese by Agnes Chan on her 1980 album.
Allen Reynolds:
Wow.
Doug Burke:
So there's something for you to look up for yourself, Allen, but another song that you wrote that's legendary and has real legs, tell me about writing this song and how it came together.
Allen Reynolds:
My friend, Sandy Mason, was going to be out of town for a week or so and had asked if I would stop by and water her plants. So I said, "Sure." I went by one evening to water the plants, and she had a little upright piano and I sat down for half an hour just messing around with it. I don't play the piano but I make chords on it, and I was messing around and generally not inspiring myself for about a half an hour. Finally, I stood up to leave, took about two steps and that melody just shot through my head, and I turned back around and sat down at the piano and went to the ninth chord, a dissonance, which I was hearing in my head. And I wrote that first verse and chorus right there. And it was just like a gift. And then, the next morning I wrote the second verse, and I wrote a third verse and decided not to use it, so the song was done. It was also how I was feeling at the time although I didn't know it. That's just another one of those gifts where a song pops out, then you have to do the hard work of finishing it, but the inspiration just hit me.
Doug Burke:
There's something about the line, it's been a too long time, because that's not the way you would normally say that sentence. It's been a long time.
Allen Reynolds:
Right.
Doug Burke:
It turns this thing into a noun, into a moment into a, it's been a too long time.
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah. Just saying it that way, it made it bigger and it sang well, so.
Doug Burke:
Aren't we all ready for the times to get better in life? That's a feeling that never ends, right?
Allen Reynolds:
Yeah, I still am.
Doug Burke:
We all are, right? That's an eternal feeling. I think that's what's so great about this song, is it just touches on this eternal emotion.
Allen Reynolds:
It's always amazed me how songs have legs and wings and move around the world. And I've had letters from entertainers, not well-known, but people who were out there doing it saying, "I sing your song every night," just can't begin to describe what a good feeling that is. In fact, I heard from an old college friend just a few days ago who said for the last several days, he had had an ear worm that was saying, "It's been a too long time and I'm ready for the times to get better, too long time with no peace of mind." That was just days ago.
Doug Burke:
I think we all have that feeling. It's not all the time, but every once in a while, every year, every month, you feel like that, and that's what's so wonderful about this song. It captures this feeling. Is it a clarinet, this Kenny G-like instrument, in the production you did?
Allen Reynolds:
It's a soprano sax.
Doug Burke:
Soprano sax. Okay. And who played that? Do you remember? Who came up with the idea, because it's so gorgeous?
Allen Reynolds:
There was a horn player named Billy Pewitt. I have the habit of, once I have a bunch of masters I'm working on and I think, "Well, I'd like to have such-and-such a musician do this on a certain cut," while they're there, after we've done that, I'll maybe have another two or three songs I might want to present just to see if they have any ideas. And that's what I did. I had Billy there for some other song and I just ran that song by him, and he had that idea and I really liked it.
Doug Burke:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's not a traditional country sound, right? It's what makes the song a crossover appeal in some ways, in my mind, to the adult contemporary world, because it sounds like this Kenny G thing that they love. Am I right about that? That that instrument is not your conventional country instrument.
Allen Reynolds:
You're right. It's not at all. The thing I've always tried to remember is that genres are marketing devices. They're for the convenience of salesmen. They have nothing to do with how human beings listen to music and what they receive or don't receive. And I have always tried to remember that the same people who were buying Bing Crosby records were also buying the Blue Yodeler, Jimmy Rogers. That's always stuck with me, so I don't think the audience has the prejudices that watchman for genres have.
Doug Burke:
Yeah. Especially in this 1970s era, so much of the genres was controlled by radio stations and what the program director deemed worthy. And if you were a rock station and you threw strings on a song, you couldn't play it, and if you were a country station and you threw a soprano saxophone on a song, maybe you wouldn't get played. But-
Allen Reynolds:
I cut a record with Crystal Gayle. It was a Delbert McClinton song called Take It Easy, and we used a saxophone on it. And I had been over at Columbia Records, it was going to be the next single, and we'd been having a meeting with the marketing guys and the head of promotion, and I thought everything was cool.
Allen Reynolds:
And as he's leaving the room, he stops in the doorway, turned around and says, "There's just one thing that bothers me about this record." And I said, "What?", and he said, "The saxophone." And I said, "Joe, do you think that country people hate saxophones? Do you remember Boots Randolph?" And he spun on his heels and left without comment. I fought that kind of a thing, that kind of thinking, all the time, all the time, from record label people who had no sense of adventure or had these tight little rules about what would be acceptable and what wouldn't, and organizations like the Grand Ole Opry fostered that too. For years, they wouldn't allow drums, and finally, they would allow a drummer with a snare and a high hat, and he had to stand up and they would have that on the stage.
Doug Burke:
And that's it.
Allen Reynolds:
No, that's it. It took forever for them to finally allow a drum kit. They were the same way. Tom T. Hall had a big hit that had trumpets on it and he wanted to do it on the Opry, and they said, "You can't use the horns." And he said, "The hell, you say," and they said, "no, you can't," and so he didn't do the song on the Grand Ole Opry. I don't know why people behave that way or make rules like this, but they can get awfully stubborn and stuck in their ways, may I hereby condemn them for it.
Doug Burke:
Thank you for doing that on my show. Really, it makes my day. I love that. So we've been living through this COVID pandemic, epidemic, and there's so many of your songs that we could talk about. I could almost do another episode on things like We Should Be Together, Everybody's Reaching Out For Someone, Kingdom, I Call My Home. But we've lost Charlie Pride this past weekend and John Prine earlier in the year to COVID, and obviously Charlie Daniels and some others. Charlie and John recorded some of your material. Charlie recorded Take Me Home, and Which Way Do We Go? Maybe you want to talk a little bit about working with Charlie, and?
Allen Reynolds:
I loved Charlie's singing and I knew him some, not because of his working with Cowboy, but I remember I was still working for the bank in Memphis and had come up for a musical event at Vanderbilt, and while I was here I was visiting with Jack Clement in his office. And he, at some point said, "Let me play you something by an artist I'm working with," and he played The Snakes Crawl At Night by Charlie Pride. And then, he played a couple of other things, and I just thought that this was one of the greatest voices I'd ever heard. And then, he told me the guy was black. I thought, "Well, that's wonderful. That's remarkable." And then he told me that Charlie had grown up listening to the Grand Ole Opry, that country really was his music. So he was one of those, like I say, I think he's one of the best voices country music has ever been able to lay claim to. As a new writer in town, I was always hopeful of getting a recording by Charlie, or anybody else that could sing that well, so I was honored when he cut two or three of my songs. I never had a single with him, regrettably, but I was proud to have him sing a few things I worked on.
Doug Burke:
And you had Johnny Cash record some of your stuff as well. That must have been a thrill.
Allen Reynolds:
It was an absolute thrill. I don't need to tell you this, he was one of those towering giants and I was by him like I was by Chet Atkins. In their presence, I just had such deep admiration for both of them.
Doug Burke:
Johnny did Take Me Home and My Ship Will Sail, which you wrote?
Allen Reynolds:
Uh-huh
Doug Burke:
What was the feeling like when you first heard those songs being sung by one of your heroes?
Allen Reynolds:
That's just one of the best feelings in the world. It's an honor. And for someone of that caliber to choose your song is such an honor.
Doug Burke:
Do you remember where you were when you heard one of your songs for the first time on the radio, and what song it was?
Allen Reynolds:
I remember how it felt hearing a Dickey Lee's Dream Boy on the radio. I was whistling the intro, and that was just a magical thing.
Doug Burke:
So if you could have any voice today, living voice today, record any one of your songs, what voice would you like to sing which song that you've written?
Allen Reynolds:
That's a very tough one. I would probably pick Waylon Jennings, or Bobby Bare or Charlie Pride. Those would be three of the voices I dearly love. And I wrote a song with Charles Cochran called Fellow Travelers. Bobby Bare ended up recording it eventually, but that would be maybe my choice.
Doug Burke:
That's a really different style song for you or what you're known for. I've listened to the Bobby Bare cut and it's really moody and ethereal.
Allen Reynolds:
Part of that's the production. The song is just, the subject matter was something I'd been trying to deal with for a while, and the title, Fellow Travelers, I had written two or three dead end fragments that I never got anywhere with. And it was inspired by the first shots that came back to us from the moon of the earth. Here was this beautiful blue planet that we're looking back on from the moon, and I just wished so hard that the human race could really all look at that picture and see it and know that the earth is our spaceship and we're sailing through space on this ship and we are fellow travelers. We are all in this together. And the song says, "If we must journey together forever, it's plain to see how we'll depend on each other through all eternity, for we are fellow travelers sailing across the universe, living aboard this good ship earth. We all are fellow travelers." One day I was out at Charles's house and he started playing these beautiful chords, and that song just finally got itself written.
Doug Burke:
Well, I don't know a better way to end our podcast than on that note, Allen Reynolds, that is a beautiful, inspiring thing for all of us to think about for now and forever. And I am so grateful to have you on our show, Backstory Song. Is there anything you'd like to add to our listeners or to any of your comrades.
Allen Reynolds:
Keep loving the music. Thank you. I've enjoyed meeting you and enjoyed the conversation.
Doug Burke:
Thank you, Allen Reynolds, and I'd love to have you back to have a separate episode on all your production work that you've done. We know you've produced Crystal Gayle and Don Williams, but also a great body of work with Garth Brooks and Kathy Mattea, and the late great Chris LeDoux, and Hal Ketchum, and Emmylou Harris, and Trisha Yearwood. And there seems to me there's a whole episode around what it means to be a producer and the backstory of that incredible body of work that you've produced.
Allen Reynolds:
Well, thank you. I've had a wonderful time.
Doug Burke:
Thank you. And I have to thank all my listeners and DJ Wyatt Schmidt in the sound booth. Thank you for all you do. And our social media director, MC Owens. Thanks for getting our word out there. Please follow us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook, and all the other social media places that we are at. Share the songs with your friends, and please listen to the playlist so our songwriters can get paid. That's the most important thing, and most important thing we're trying to accomplish at Backstory Song. Thank you very much.
Allen Reynolds:
Take care, Doug.
