Aja Volkman-Reynolds and Dan Epand of TWWO
Doug Burke:
Aja Volkman-Reynolds and Dan Epand spent more than 10 years playing Anthemic Alt-rock together as two-thirds of the iconic band Nico Vega. Over that decade of tours, recording sessions, and label deals, they forged an artistic partnership that endures until today. After announcing Nico Vega's hiatus in 2016, they're back as a duo, simply named TWO. Their debut record “Pull the Knife Out,” heralds the confident start of their new era. Sparked by Volkman's since revoked separation from her husband, Dan Reynolds of Imagine Dragons, the writing process dredged up seven tracks worthy of meditations on pain, reconciliation, and womanhood.
It's something Volkman has grappled with all the more, as a mother of four in the midst of the #MeToo movement. Welcome to Backstory Song. I'm your host, Doug Burke. Today, I am super thrilled to have Aja Volkman and Dan Epand from the band TWO on the show. Welcome, you two.
Dan Epand:
Hello.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Thank you. Hi.
Dan Epand:
Thanks, Doug.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Thank you for having us.
Doug Burke:
You guys formed the band TWO, and it's kind of a sequel, if you will, to your former band. Maybe you could tell me a little bit about how you guys have been playing together for a long time, but how did this come to be in your new band, but we know your work.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Dan, why don't you take that one?
Dan Epand:
Man, I mean, I suppose it is a continuation or chapter two. I mean, Aja and I, we've been making music together for 10 years or so. You become a family. It's like siblings. Like any family, there's just like, life is a little bit of a roller coaster and you go through different periods in life and you grow and you change and you evolve separately, and then you evolve together. It's a roller coaster in that way. We were in a band called Nico Vega. We spent a lot of years writing, recording, and touring. We would sit in the back of a van. I used to say that I would hang out with Aja during the day and I'd hang out with Rich, the Nico Vega guitar player, at night. During the day, Aja and I would just talk about life and she'd be reading some kind of self-help book. We would get deep. Then at night, I'd go get wasted with Rich. That was the experience. We had a lot of fun. We, definitely, if you want to take the word grounded out, we grinded it out, literally. We just hit a place where we needed a break. We took a break. Aja and I stayed really close during the years, even though we were doing different things. She was doing solo stuff. I was starting to produce and write on my own and worked with other people. She just called me up one day. Aja is just one of those people, there is an urgency when she really wants to do anything. Well, if you're an artist, you're always looking ... There's a lot of times where you're just channeling that yourself. When somebody else has that, it's intoxicating. She rang me up and she was going through something really heavy in her life and she wanted to write. I just know her so well. I knew she meant business. I hopped on an airplane, flew to Las Vegas where she was living. We wrote three or four songs in that two-day period. We didn't know what it was going to be. I mean, it's in that moment, we named the band. It just all took shape. Then we sat on the music for a little bit. Right after we wrote all the songs, she got pregnant. It didn't seem like the time to release music when she was pregnant, especially because the music was coming from such a ferocious, emotional place. It didn't really mesh with where she was at in her life at that moment. She had her baby. Then the pandemic hit. All of a sudden, it was just like, you know what, let's just ... Who cares? Let's let it out. Let's do it. Let's not sit on it. As an artist, and I think a lot of artists have struggled with that at the first stage of the pandemic, is you're waiting for the perfect moment when everything lines up and it's time to release your music. We're in a period of chaos right now, and there's no right answer. There's no solution. I think our attitude was like, let's just have zero expectations. We didn't know if people would care about Nico Vega at this point, it had been a few years. It was really just coming from a really pure place, where it was like, let's have no expectations. Let's let it rip and see if anybody cares and not really worry too much about the outcome. That's where we're at right now.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
That's well said.
Doug Burke:
Your first album is Pull the Knife Out. We're going to talk about some songs. We're also going to talk about some of the Nico Vega songs that you wrote.
Dan Epand:
To you, we can remember.
Doug Burke:
One of the songs that you wrote became a controversial song because it's the song called Beast, and the Trump administration embraced it and used it in a video. You guys sent out what I thought was an incredibly diplomatic press release saying, "Please don't do that." Tell me about that experience.
Dan Epand:
I'll keep it short because I'd love to hear what Aja has to say. I think the tricky thing is, at this point, it's like we've all had those arguments you know you can't change anybody's mind. I've spent a couple of years trying to change people's minds and realize that that was a waste of energy. I'm sure we all have people that we love who have gone down the Trump rabbit hole, to the point where you have a little bit of empathy because it's the smart people and it's so much of it is the community, the people they're around, where they're getting the news, and to the point where it's like being angry at them does not help anybody. I don't know, I think we both and we both have tried to look at it as if we're going to try and heal if we're going to try and bring people back together. Maybe pointing the finger isn't the solution.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
I agree. I think Dan and I have a similar unique perspective on it coming from this industry, also, so many things. You can put a target on your back and then you actually just invite so much toxic energy when you lash out or do something that is very like, with so much accusation or conviction about this is how it is and you are the bad guy or something, I think we've both experienced the backlash of toxicity of hate that is available, readily available, to so many on social media. I don't want to invite that into my life and my reality. I also feel like Dan said, my experience is that change comes from within and also, I think, from camaraderie. I think that when you change because you feel inspired by something to do something different and you see a better way and an evolution in something. When you're mudslinging, it's not an invitation to have any evolution anyway. It's also very self-righteous, in my opinion, to believe that you know why someone thinks the way they think and has the opinions that they have. Because we all come from different backgrounds and upbringings. When you walk the shoes of someone else from the beginning to the place where they land, you have a much better understanding as to why they make the decisions that they make and have the perspective that they have. I prefer to honor that and respect that journey with trust in a sense of not necessarily it's my way, but it's that person's way. They've done the best to their ability to reach where they've landed. I'm not saying that I condone anything that, in my view, feels negative or hard. I just feel it's a part of the evolution and we're still in the process. We're not where we need to be in order to have a safe and wonderful and loving and nurturing community. Hopefully, we can get there someday before we destroy the entire planet and each other and all living things. I'm very patient with the process because I do believe the evolution. I do believe in a higher perspective. I do believe that all of the things that we're experiencing right now, it's like we're pushing humanity forward, and it does take a certain amount of resistance to have a certain amount of growth. I think that's just my perspective. I'm not here to tell someone that the way they see the world is false because I just think that's more of the same junk that we've had for so long. I guess what I feel is like I'm always reaching for a higher truth for myself. I'm always reaching for a higher perspective for myself. I hope that can inspire my children and the people around me to always reach for a higher truth and a higher perspective. I'm always trying to connect. I like to do that with music and give people hope and love. That's my job. It hurts me when I say anything online that someone lashes out, "We're not asking for your opinion, just shut up, and make your music." There's a lot of that out there. I'm like, oh, man, it's crazy that when you're an artist and you put yourself out there, you're expected to just be this vessel of something enjoyable, I guess. You can't really take the reins and form your own opinions. I've also learned that, as Dan said, I'm not here to push someone to be something they're not ready to be. I'm not here to ... It's not my decision what you do with your life. I can have my feelings and opinions about it, but I'm not here to control another person. That's ultimately my feeling, I guess. I don't know if that even answered any of the questions that you asked about the Trump song and the Beast and whatever. I don't take it personally.
Doug Burke:
Well, I think it's helpful. I mean, the opening line of the song, stands tall for the beast of America. No one's really used that phrase before, I don't think, in a song, which is why your songwriting is so unique and wonderful. What is the beast of America?
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Well, this is a really good conversation to have about the song because I wrote this, that phrase ... Let's see, 16 years ago, and I was 24 years old when I wrote that. The thing that I can tell you is that I'm a very different person now than I was then. I have no idea what I was thinking that day when I walked into the studio. That's what came out of me. I can tell you the feeling of the song for me. A lot of my music is about feeling and the words just line up with the cadence of the rhythm and the emotions, and all of it just comes together in a flow. That flow is always about what the feeling in my heart is. I know the feeling I felt when I wrote that song, was empowerment. It was togetherness. It was standing up for your neighbor and loving someone, regardless of where they came from and who they are, and learning how to support your fellow neighbor. Really, the monster, we're like ... I don't know. I guess your fellow neighbor is not the monster. The monster is like there are bigger things happening. I guess there are just bigger things at play that I feel like we're sitting here stabbing each other in the organs. It's like there are bigger suppressive powers that are, I don't know, controlling our worlds and societies and the people at the top with the money and the power and the suppression that rains down on everyone, and why are we attacking each other. That's where the song came from. I guess, when someone uses it to pit, my issue with Trump, using it in that way was more than it was fueling a very divisive perspective, was irritating to me. Because the song is about coming together, regardless of religious beliefs, regardless of political beliefs, recognizing you're a person, I'm a person, we are both breathing the same air.
Doug Burke:
I really think the break of the song, which is this primal, Native American, African Caribbean drumbeat, where you profess that you've got to love your neighbor, love your neighbor, and let your neighbor love you back. In this just primal drumbeat, that to me is ... Because it occurs in the break of the song, is this core message that you're trying to get through throughout the whole ... It's the overwhelming message of the song is in the break. It's buried there in the break-in some ways.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Like bursting at the themes and then the theme bursts, yeah. At that point in the song, when we were on stage, we would break and Dan would be playing so hard, and I would be dancing so hard. Rich would do his dances. It was just like, let it go. Actually, the most important part of that whole phrase, that whole dialogue, to me is actually the let your neighbor love you back thing. Because I think that receiving love is really hard for people. I think that, to me, was like it's not just about loving your neighbor, but it's also about allowing that energy to come back at you.
Doug Burke:
Why do you think it's so hard for people to allow themselves to be loved back?
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
I mean, I think a lot of it probably has to do with the way that we raise our children in society. I think we're going to get better and better at that. You're taught to be a big kid, do things, but you don't need help. We just are taught that from the beginning, and I think we need help. We all do. It's not just be strong and save everyone. I've spent a lot of my life wanting to save the world because I just came here that way. Whoever I was when I was born, I had that feeling from a young age of like, I just want to help, I just want to help, help, help, help. It's about receiving it too, letting it come back to you, letting other people be powerful, learning from them, and learning what they have to offer, and listening. Listening is also a big part of receiving and also giving. As a society, we're starting to wake up to the fact that like, yeah, it's really time to listen. There are people that have been suppressed and shut down for so long. I think in those communities, they're finally hopefully getting a platform to actually be able to be heard, and that maybe we can learn something this time around instead of recreating more of the damage. Anyhow, that's what I think.
Doug Burke:
I'm glad you were able to set the record straight about what this song's purpose really is. It seems like the propaganda machine sometimes takes the artist's work in different directions than it perhaps was intended.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Yeah. It is actually a very American song though, in the sense of, come on, let's come together, in that sense.
Doug Burke:
What I love about your sound, and I totally think there's an Aja sound. A lot of artists, say, Oh, you sound like this person or that person or ... I'm sure you might have inspiration from ... I don't know, Patti Smith or Joan Jett or something, Veruca Salt or something like that. It's Aja when you hear it. No other voice sounds like your voice. I really think this song, you're like the Zack de la Rocha, the female Zack de la Rocha Rage Against the Machine in the video asking America to do something, and that is to stand tall and love your neighbor, and let your neighbor love you back. Who does not want that message to be heard?
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Yeah, I feel you. Thank you for that. I agree.
Doug Burke:
I don't know if I'm ranting or raving.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
No, I think that's like ...
Doug Burke:
Or making sense.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
No. Thank you. I feel like it's ... It's so funny. When I wrote the song originally, it was it's had five evolutions. I swear. Every time, we're like, it wasn't relevant till now. Then it goes away and then it's like, oh, but it's relevant now, and then it goes away. I do think it is always relevant. It's like we can always grow more, be better, love each other more.
Doug Burke:
Do you know why Donald Trump picked it or his team picked it?
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Do I know why? No.
Doug Burke:
Dan, do you know why?
Dan Epand:
I mean, I think I know why. I think the song was written for the ... I think at the time, to channel where Aja was coming from with the lyrics, it was written for the oppressed.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Yeah, like the underdog of society.
Dan Epand:
The underdog and the irony of the Trump message are that White males are the oppressed. To me, it's like that's the irony. That was why it made me sick to my stomach at the time, is just, I think, that kind of says it all. What is your thought, Doug?
Doug Burke:
My interpretation and I don't usually extend my interpretation on the show, but I think they picked up on the line, keep it real for the people working in overtime, they can't stand living off the government's dime. That's number one. Number two is their nickname for the limousine, it was the beast. When they were driving around in their secret service-protected limousine, they were in the beast.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Well.
Doug Burke:
They identified with the beast of America.
Dan Epand:
Yeah, it is funny because my dad actually reminded me that one of the issues that we had with the song when we were going through the radio rounds was that people were confused about what side of politics we were coming down on. Some people saw it as like this right-wing nationalist idea. I mean, I think some of those lines that you just mentioned. I totally forgot about that. That was one of the things that it's not the first time that people were confused about what the message really meant and who we were speaking to. I mean, I guess the goal of art is for it to be open to interpretation and who are we to tell people what the song should mean to them. When you're going to get into something where that video is used to promote that January 6th rally and when you see what the evil, I'll use that word, I mean, and what was behind it all, you just have to put your foot down.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
I would say also, as a writer, I've become more literal over the years. I think I listened to some of my earliest material and there's so much fantasy intertwined in how I would tell a story. Sometimes it's hard for me to even go back and follow my own wavelength and be like, what was that word representing? What was I thinking right there? It's interesting because I do love that, because there's such poetry. I guess the way that I would say things, sometimes it's intriguing for me. Because as I become more trained by defaults and also just being constantly writing with my husband or writing around him or hearing his writing, it's been a lot of training that I think that it's sad sometimes. Because I even listened to my melody work in my early material and just the language and the melodies were so untrained and so free. It's like doodling versus then you go to training and you become a figure painter or something like ... I miss that because now there are so many formulas ingrained in me. I just know too much. I have to really let go to be creative with my own writing. Sometimes it comes away more fluidly. Sometimes it does just channel out of me and it is so creative and so fun. Other times, I'm like, ugh, I can't break away from my own rigidity. I think when I listened back to the early work, even when we're talking about the lyrics of the Beast, I'm like, ugh, I miss that kind of freedom in the songwriting, in the music, and even the melody writing, and just letting go, and whatever came out ended up in the song. Instead of like, okay, let's rework this 15 times to make sure it makes sense. I don't write that way really, anyway. That's probably why I'm always pulling away from that because I don't like the formula. There's a certain amount of, I don't know, freedom lost when you become trained in something or you've done it so long. I think I just miss it sometimes. I miss that. I like the early material for those reasons sometimes.
Doug Burke:
Let's talk about a song that's a very, very different stylistic song. It's a song about Tony Stark called Iron Man.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
One of the reasons I actually thought this would be a fun song to discuss because this was an example of me breaking out of my hometown and then writing a letter to my parents. Before I feel like I was fully developed into, not that I'm ever going to be fully developed into who I am, but I think I was on such a journey of needing to prove something still on this journey of breaking away and making my own and having nothing and learning how to build something for myself and I'm going to be this thing and I'm going to prove to you that I am who I am and that it was such a letter, that song.
Doug Burke:
It's not a song about Tony Stark.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
No. That's a song written to my parents.
Doug Burke:
It's a love note to your parents?
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
It was like a pain note to my parents.
Doug Burke:
A pain note, right, because it's in this minor key. It's like a slow ...
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
It's just like this relationship to parents where it's like you break away and then you're trying to figure out who you are. They're worried about you and always asking you like, okay, so what's happening now? What have you set up for yourself now? Is there anything else? How is music going? What's happening? Is something going to happen? Are you ... You're just grinding and grinding and grinding and pounding the pavement. I don't think my parents will ever have a real insight into how hard I am a worker, I actually am or was. Because I didn't live at home for any of that. I think that the exhaustion from trying to make this thing happen and have to then constantly check in with the people that are worried about you that are like, I don't know if you should keep going down this path, because it's just not really working out. That's where that song came from.
Doug Burke:
I come from a big family of seven kids. My youngest brother said, "You can only go home to visit the parents for three days. The first day, it's all hugs and kisses and how wonderful it is to see you. The second day is, so what are you up to? The third day is they realize they're your parents, and they can give you unsolicited advice nonstop."
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
That is actually brilliant.
Doug Burke:
That is time to go back.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
I would say that's actually brilliant. Because I do actually remember feeling like, man, three days is perfect. I actually have had that thought before, longer than three is it turns into like, hah. I used to have panic attacks when I would go home and stay for too long and an identity crisis. Because I would be like, I don't know who I am right now, I'm back here again, and I'm trying to be the person that I know these people see me as. I'm carving this whole new path. It's this whole new mentality and structure and way of living. Then I'm coming back to this and I'm like, got to explain it. Then I'm having a crisis because I'm not even acting like my new self. I fall back into my old patterns. All of a sudden, I need someone to take care of me again or ... It's that kind of thing. You're always the child until you ... Maybe I think that all changes when you actually become a parent too, because I do feel like your parents look at you and they're like, oh, okay, it's real for you now. When you're trying to prove that in your 20s, you're like, I'm going to make it, I promise you. There's going to be evidence that something worked at some point. Me not again and again, not really having any of that evidence, and which is such a part of my own existential journey, was to get to this place where it's not about them. It's not about anyone else, me proving anything to anyone. It's about getting okay with you.
Doug Burke:
What does it mean to you, Aja, to be an Iron Man?
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Oh, man, for me, that was the sensitivity that I have to everything in life, which is like any artist, I feel pretty much, learning how to navigate that and maybe to have boundaries where you can protect yourself. That maybe, for me, at the time was being an iron man.
Doug Burke:
Why didn't you write Ironwoman? Why didn't you see yourself as this Joan of Arc?
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
This is actually a tricky conversation because I really respect everyone's viewpoint on gender. Through my own self, I don't feel that labels are needed. I've never really felt that way. When people would be like, why isn't as a woman? I would be like, Mm, I don't know. It was irritating. It was always irritating to me to put a woman in there. I don't know why.
Doug Burke:
You and your husband have been the leaders of defending the LGBTQ rights in the state of Utah and perhaps nationwide, in some respects, with the work you've done.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
We'd like to call ourselves allies. Because I think one of the things we both are very sensitive to, is we're not taking this movement as like, this is my movement, I'm the authority on this. Because I am just a friend of the community and an ally.
Doug Burke:
Yeah, you're not the leaders in it, your friends supporting the cause.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Yes, we are here to lift up and support and love and give a safe space and create more safe space. I think I've always had a lot of ... I love people. I guess anytime I see something where I'm like, people are being poorly and fairly untreated and policed by other people, it really is hard for me, hard for me to let that go, because I just love people. I feel like people deserve to live their own journey and have their freedoms. As long as they're not hurting other people, and hopefully not hurting themselves, I really believe in the freedom to figure out your journey.
Doug Burke:
Dan, there's one musical thing in this song that I just love, because I know you are the percussionist, but it is the simple triangle note.
Dan Epand:
God, it's been a long time. You know what? Oh my gosh.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
I know what you're talking about, yeah.
Dan Epand:
It's really funny. That was not a triangle note. That was this bell. We were at Linda Perry's studio. I don't even know if there would be a way for you to hear this, because this version no longer exists on Spotify or any streaming service. You would have to have the original Nico Vega self-titled CD. We thought secret tracks were a cool thing. There's a secret track where I continue playing that bell. I improv the song about the bells chiming.
Doug Burke:
Dan plays the bell.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Wait, can you redo it? I know you remember. I can barely remember it.
Dan Epand:
Better than that is I will send it to you.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
No, no, no, no. I want you to sing it. You can sing it.
Dan Epand:
The bells are chiming, the bells.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
The bells, that's right.
Dan Epand:
I also did this thing where I purposely cracked my voice and everyone just thought it was because I was a really bad singer.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
No, that was not the purpose. That was an accident to this day.
Dan Epand:
I'll do it again. The bells are chiming, the bells.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
The bells.
Dan Epand:
That was how our record ended. I'm sure you had another question regarding that. I do remember even when we were having that song mixed, there was a moment where we focused on that bell hit and getting the right reverb and right level.
Doug Burke:
Yeah. This is like one of these wonderful things in the melody that just accentuates the lyric in the moment of the song and it stands out and surprises you and reinforces the feeling. A lot of songwriting is about trying to communicate a feeling through this marriage of words and sounds. When you hear a Linda Perry saying, "Why don't you go bang that bell right here? Just one time. Don't do it more than that."
Dan Epand:
Well, I mean, I think that's the cool thing about percussion coming up when you're a session musician, you're learning percussion. It's really not overplaying and not just dropping stuff all over a track. It's like, I mean, as you said it, that one moment, it's this little hanging bell. It's something that you noticed and it's something that becomes an integral memorable hook in the production.
Doug Burke:
This song has some great lines in it, especially now that I understand that it's a note to your parents. I'm a sheep when it comes to explaining and I'm afraid of the thoughts that you're making. Then my favorite is, I wish that I could know the difference between your smiles and frowns. That one is like ... I think that's how every kid thinks their parent is looking at them. Whereas every parent thinks they're either ...
Dan Epand:
We are.
Doug Burke:
... smiling or frowning ...
Dan Epand:
We are.
Doug Burke:
... to the kid.
Dan Epand:
Now I'm a parent. We are. It's true.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Ugh, yeah.
Doug Burke:
To give the look like I'm not smiling and I'm not frowning, you figure it out what I'm doing here.
Dan Epand:
Yeah, yeah. It's like a balance of awe at what you created and then questions about how you both, as a team, managed to fuck it up.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Yeah. As an adult, going to your parents, it's hard to tell when it's like they're encouraged and excited and, really, if they like it. I've been a pretty obscure musician at times in my life. I think there were several times where it was also like, do they hear me? Do they understand it? Is it too much? I can't get a read of like, do they get it? Is it good to them? Do you think this is crap? I can't tell. Then I think as I've developed even more into an adult, my relationship with them is so different now. I think they really see me clearly and understand me more. I think they're more expressive now. I think maybe because it's also not hanging on my survival anymore. Your parents can't help but be worried when you're younger and they're like, okay, this is really cool. It's not probably going to make a million dollars.
Doug Burke:
I'm going to make a million dollars for you guys, because I'm going to be your song pitch master right now. I'm going to ask the Disney Marvel people to use this as the theme song to the next Iron Man movie. Okay? Robert Downey will endorse this. Look, every Bond movie started with a great song. This is a great song to start the Iron Man movie franchise that you will ever, ever find, the people at Disney Marvel, okay?
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Oh my gosh.
Doug Burke:
I want my audience to send this to the Disney Marvel people with their Twitter and Instagram and Facebook support around that ID.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
You are so sweet. It's funny. I think we thought even when we wrote Iron Man, it was soon after that, at some point, I think was the first Iron Man movie. I remember this conversation has been floating around for so long. So many years, you're like, man, if they just would have used this for the actual movie, it also would have brought this cool contrast to ... Because it is a very sad song too. He's probably pretty sad.
Doug Burke:
Tony Stark is a complex, sad character.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Exactly. I was like, maybe this is perfect for him, right?
Doug Burke:
He's a hostage to his pride. He has all the things that this song talks about. I want this in the next movie, and that's the end of this song discussion. Let's talk about one of my favorite songs of your Nico Vega error and work, and that's Gravity.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
I wanted to bring that one up, especially because it's probably one of my favorites too. Have you seen the video? The video is so ... It's just so much fun.
Doug Burke:
Really? I thought it was so dark.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Oh my gosh. Okay, it was ...
Doug Burke:
I thought it was really disturbing. When that guy with the 1960s film camera punches you in the face, I'm like, Ah!
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
It was so much fun to film. It was also done by a great director who is like ... It's funny because his specialty is these horror films. That's probably where the gore came from. I love that video so much. Maybe it's because I'm a little twisted.
Doug Burke:
It's a very twisted video. There's no question. Because you're trapped in this elevator and you're with these men and they're like from the 1960s that's got this mad men feel. They're grinding their hands and you could just feel something's going to happen and you think it's going to be like this #MeToo movement. The guy bashes you in the face.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
I know. I can't show my children the video because it really looks like I'm getting beaten up bad. It was all special effects. The bottles that they smashed on my back were made for that. It wasn't real glass balls, but they did hurt when they shattered. We were really beaten up by the end of that video. We were beaten up, I remember. It was so fun to film. We had a bunch of our friends in it. A bunch of the people wrestling us and stuff are friends.
Doug Burke:
That's not what the song is about.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
No, no. That's not the song is about. It actually is kind of, because it was like about ... I want to say like the big superpowers that loom over society, like the top of the pyramid at the time, I guess, in my brain, holding you down. Then also about, at the time, it was ... Let me think. I have to really go back into my little psyche. It was about not being held back by other people's limitations and words have gravity. They hold weight. That was the whole point. The song is about words. It's about like ... I was big into talking about suppression all the time.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
That was a big part of my vocabulary back then. It comes out now when we're talking about these songs, but things that hold you back and hold you down and keep you from being the bigger, more expressive, explosive version of yourself. That was a big part of Nico Vega's message from the very beginning. I think our first EP, before Dan even joined the band, was called choose your words poorly. It was like a play on just not censoring yourself as much, and then we had paint ... It was a picture of us looking censored, paint across our mouths. Our mouths were painted shut or something.
Doug Burke:
The chorus is call and response-ish and very anthemic. Your live shows, this is, I believe, one of the more popular songs with a lot of audience participation, but one of the lines is na na na na na na na. You could do better than I, of course. That's not words. You're saying na na na.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Na na na na, yeah. I think I did a lot of that in music as well.
Doug Burke:
Does that just come to you like, this is where I need a na na na and a whoo and a woo-woo-woo.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
It's a rhythmic, fun changeup and creative little departure from the expected.
Dan Epand:
I do remember that that was not the original chorus, and that was from somebody ... I can't remember who challenged us to ... Or maybe it was just even ourselves, but that wasn't the original chorus.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
I think Gravity was one of our most fun songs. Part of the reason why I actually thought it would be a good song to talk about was because it was one of the few songs that we actually reworked, and hate reworking music. If you know me, I'm like, this is it. It's done. Let's move on. Please don't ask me about it.
Dan Epand:
Well, it's funny she says that, because I was ... When we were talking about Iron Man, I do remember because we were signed to MySpace Records and MySpace Tom.
Doug Burke:
We all know MySpace Tom.
Dan Epand:
For those of you who don't, maybe a younger generation, Tom was like ... He was like the Mark Zuckerberg of MySpace, but anyway. We actually knew Tom and we went to dinner with him. We were pretty stoked on that at the time. I do remember with Iron Man, he did call Aja up and say, "I really liked this song, but I don't really understand what you're trying to say. I'm not telling you what to do. I don't want to step on your feet as an artist, but could you try to make the lyrics a little more clear?" I remember, you just be like, "No."
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Oh my gosh. It's funny, because this is a good opportunity, actually, to talk about the death of Nico Vega. There was many things that happened. Some of it was also just it was such hard work and not the response that I felt like we needed to keep it going at the rate that it was going at. That was part of it. A big portion for me was, actually, as soon as we would sign a deal, there was always these voices that would come in and start manipulating the music to make it more commercial, more marketable. Of course, as a woman in the music industry, and I never even really have thought of what it means to be a woman in the industry, probably because there's some part of me that's in such denial of like ... I'm insistent upon there not being a difference between a woman and a man or something in my own mind. I'm like, nope, it's not because I'm a woman. There was such a marketability conversation always going on, even a deeper conversation that maybe other people weren't aware of about what to wear at photoshoots. Like this needs to look a little different, meaning let's show a little more sexiness. There's more appeal. She needs to look better. A lot of that going on, but then also in the music, manipulating it to make it more ... What's the word? Like ...
Doug Burke:
Radio friendly.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Yeah, and just like edible, just like ...
Doug Burke:
Edible, oh.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Not edible, but needs to be something that people can digest, understand, get on board with, and a lot of people needs to be more mainstream. As soon as that started happening, and I am very ... Dan knows I'm as hardheaded as I've become over the years, it's in my personality to be very compliant as well and be very ... I like people to be happy. I want to try to do what people are asking of me. I'm like, don't want to say no and I'm going to try to say yes. I'm going to try to always do the thing. I really was always reworking things to make it more marketable. It ended up killing me, actually, because I just lost track of myself. I couldn't hear my own voice anymore. Then I married someone who's incredibly prolific and very ... He has a great pop sensibility, obviously, as most people know. It comes very naturally to him. He's very comfortable with that aspect of his music, and it's natural for him.
Doug Burke:
For our audience, tell them who your husband is.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
My husband is Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons. He's the singer and songwriter. Being his wife aside, he's the most prolific person I've ever met. It's crazy. I mean, he writes hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of songs. Every album ends up being 20 or less, like 12 songs. We have such a different workflow. We both write very quickly, but I'm a very ... It comes in spurts, and then I want to draw for a month. Then I want to make something else for a month, and then I want to do something else. He's very consistent. He's very reliable, consistent, and very palatable, I guess, is the word. When we're talking about his music, most of it, I mean, I hear his obscure stuff that nobody hears that is totally out there. He's like, "Oh, I just was feeling this today," and then plays like some crazy thing that is ... I'm like, wow, that's awesome, but one will ever hear it. That's part of what gets released. It's a very successful business and banned and they're amazing. What gets released is the stuff that is palatable. I feel like for me, I couldn't play that game and do it in a way that felt honest for me.
Doug Burke:
One of the lines in this, you said that that almost killed you. One of the lines in this, it's almost a biblical line, you say, over time, you can kill me, but I'll resurrect, so na na na na na na.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
That is actually the truth. I mean, I think that's what happens. I persevere and we all do, hopefully.
Doug Burke:
It's not just persevering, resurrect is like there's one big guy who resurrected, to my knowledge.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
I think like our life is a series of falling down and getting up again. Those are like little deaths, little deaths that you have to reconcile. I've done that so many times. I think that's on a grander scale in life, we do it. I think also with people, it's like you hurt relationships and things, stuff happens, and you have to recover. You need to come back from it. That's what that song, what that part of it was about. I think on a bigger level, Gravity is a really good example of that song had a big evolution. It did work out. It's a cool song. I'm glad that we rewrote it and reworked it. I can't do that with all the material, because it doesn't feel right for me, I'm ready to move on. The thought is the thought and the feeling is the feeling. I want to create something different and express something new. It's hard for me to fit into the construct of the way that music is made right now. Because I've written with Dan, and I've had influenced on some of the Dragon's material here and there, just because we live together and we write together sometimes, my husband, Dan. I definitely don't want to play that game. I don't want to go into a room and write for other people really. I've done a lot of writing and jumping through hoops, and it never feels good. It killed me. I feel very recovered now.
Doug Burke:
Well, I'm glad you resurrected.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
I have. I think TWO is a really good example to bring it more modern, but to now. Dan knows me very well, this Dan Epand on the call, knows me very well. I've come to a place where I'm expressing more fully than I think I was for a really long time. I had this whole phase of solo music. I wrote this album, Sandy. It was during when I was pregnant and having babies. A lot of that, what came out of me was more tender and soft and quiet and easy, and there's a place for that too. I think I feel finally at a place where I'm able to fully express and be myself. I'm very comfortable with that. I love myself now, maybe that was a part of it, learning that. TWO feels like, for me, I'm really happy in this band. I'm really happy in this dynamic with him. We hear and see each other. Our communication is really great. I feel very heard and seen and expressed. That's really special.
Doug Burke:
I had a few questions about Gravity. I love this line, but maybe you can help me understand its meaning or maybe not, the title line, gravity is a parallel on words. What does that mean?
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
This is another one of those moments where you're like, okay, bad English and poetry coincide. Let's see, gravity is a parallel on words. I think that that was just the meaning of that, at the time, was really just that gravity and words, words are labels, and they hold weight, no matter what you think. How you choose to speak and say something will be perceived how it is heard. It stinks that we are limited to that. We're not telepathic creatures right now. Maybe we will be someday in our evolution. Right now, you have to communicate with labels. That is part of what I think this generation now is coming out of, actually, is like there will be so much more fluidity in the way that we describe things and the way that we understand things. We will be more accepting of things that are living outside of a box or a label.
Doug Burke:
Well, that's a lot more than I expected from that.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Well, but it is. Well, the words, I mean, words hold weight, and they are labels. That's what our whole reality is based on. You don't just come into the world and decide what something is for yourself and take your own thought for it or word for it. You are taught, and then that is your experience. Our language holds weight. We're learning now too, that part of when people talk about systematic racism and all these things that are new perspectives on these old ways that have just been living and living and living on, a lot of it is just language too. It's how we communicate and how we identify things and boxes we put things in and how we don't even know the origins of some of the things we say. That's words. They're weaponized. They're weapons. We know that too very well from watching a president who, not to demonize anyone, but I feel like we've had a major experience of people weaponizing language. Really, it's been very at the forefront of our media. The hard thing is that it is very manipulative and it's very painful and hurtful. Now, we've really lost perspective on how to relearn things. We're having to rebuild, because of language.
Doug Burke:
Did the exercise of our First Amendment Right caused an insurrection and a riot in the capital or not? That's been debated as we're recording this. Is it a First Amendment Right? There are boundaries on it. You can't yell fire in a crowded movie theater. Let's turn to one of your new songs from TWO, where one of the words I find to be ... This is such great songwriting, because it's a simple change of one of the words, it's called In This Rough. The chorus is like a diamond, like a diamond in this rough. All you did was change the word the to this. Because, normally, the cliché is like a diamond in the rough. By changing it from the to this, it profoundly changes the meaning of the phrase and the message of the song. It's just cool.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Thank you. Because now we're getting more recent when we start tackling these TWO songs, and they are deeply emotional and very personal. I, totally, am fine to discuss all of them. I think, yeah, I mean, I was going through a rough. There was, I think, the beauty of in this rough ... Oh, man, the beauty of that song for me was that song was a turning point for me, where the anger turned to forgiveness for what I was going through in my personal life. It was a journey to get there. There was a surrender that finally just broke through. I think the reason why in this rough to me, and maybe Dan too, why it feels so special, is because that surrender does breakthrough in the song and you feel it. You feel the surrender breakthrough. Because a lot of the music on the record and a lot of what I went through and the music that didn't make the EP that we wrote that we're maybe still grappling with or playing with, did come from an angrier place and a more resistant place. I think that when I finally got to the surrender, it was like the freedom came. Freedom from what I had gone through that felt like my own battle. It was like my own anger almost trapping me. Then forgiveness and surrender was the freedom that I had needed. In this rough, I saw myself as the person standing up in the rubble. What was my life before that was gone and it was like, okay, now I'm here. Now I get to be free. Now I get to start this again. I get to recreate. There's freedom in that. I was seeing myself as this loving myself and walking out of something that was so painful. In the song, it says, pull the knife out, baby, there's nothing to forgive. That is actually the most important phrase to me. Because I think in my healing from the things that I went through, I realized that I was ultimately responsible for my own pain and that no one else is in control of that. Everyone is living their life and falling, if you will, or going through the motions and figuring it out. We wreak havoc on each other. My relationship to that is determined by me. That's a hard pill to swallow, because we put ourselves in some pretty tough situations sometimes. I'm not to say that there are not victims, because I would never take that away from someone. It's each person's journey. For me, being a victim of my circumstances was killing me. As soon as I became responsible and the power was in my hand and I could feel that I took responsibility for the positions I had put myself in, it was like, I could love other people, almost like, what's the word? I could love other people ...
Doug Burke:
Unconditionally?
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Yes. Thank you. I know this word, I say it all the time.
Doug Burke:
I always listen to you. I always listen to you. I always listen to you. That's the word.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Yeah. I can love others unconditionally and purely because it's nobody's fault anymore, but mine. I can then learn to heal myself by taking responsibility, picking up the pieces, and saying, oh my gosh, I'm proud of you for fixing this, instead of waiting for other people to make it right.
Doug Burke:
That came from within you.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
It came from within me.
Doug Burke:
It came from the diamond that was in this rough moment, this rough period, this rough patch in life.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Yes. I can fix this. I'm not here because someone put me here, I'm here because I put myself here. Being a victim really puts you in this position where you're really angry at someone like you're angry that you're here, you're angry at who puts you here, and I shouldn't have had to be in this position. This is my personal experience. Again, I want to reemphasize that because I never want to take someone's victimhood away from them. Because there are victims in the world and there are people who have had really brutal, awful things happen to them. My circumstances, I'm speaking only of my circumstances. I want to make that very clear. My circumstances are that I needed to take the power into my own hands and stop victimizing myself in order to gain respect, love, honor, stand up, forgiveness, and then ultimately, unconditional love for myself and others. That is really where the transformation came was, and that song was the expressed transformation for me.
Doug Burke:
“Pull the knife out, baby,” is not you talking to someone else. It's you talking to yourself.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Yeah. I mean, it's me and him. There is nothing that needs to be forgiven. It's all okay. Even to say there's something that needs to be forgiven to me, it's not that I wasn't acknowledging the experiences that I've gone through, but it was that like, they happen for a reason and you did what you did because you used your tools and your life. You made your choices, and it was to your best ability. By me, saying that this was a mistake or that this was an accident or this awful thing, by acknowledging that there was something to forgive, would be dishonoring the path that this other person had to go on in order to find the highest truth. It's a hard place to get to because I think that devastating things happen. I don't want to take away from that. What happened in my life, my husband and I went through a big separation. It was very blindsiding. I had three small children, and I was really displaced. I was really angry and upset for a long time. I wasn't able to even see his journey and his existential battle going on and his own experiences in his life. I couldn't really see it. I knew how deeply it affected our life, because it was not a new topic, the things that he was grappling with. The way with which he dealt, it was almost like he had tried everything. The last thing that was left to try for him was to go figure it out. You could judge that a million times over. I had friends that were so upset with me after we reconciled our differences and figured it out, and their judgment really actually never bothered me that much. Because my journey was just so profound for me. It was so amazing to get to a place where I could realize that I was where I was because of the experiences and that I needed to figure something out for myself. I couldn't do it next to him at the time. Because it was a lot to have his band blow up the way it did and mine fall apart, and then children, and feeling like a kid too in all of it, and just not really knowing how to handle all of it. I've gone so far down this path and it's such a long conversation. I don't want to sideswipe the entire podcast and the time.
Doug Burke:
I think your words are helpful, Aja. I think a lot of people go through these things in their marriages and in their partnerships in life. Everybody has rough patches, both personally and interpersonally. How you got through it, I think is helpful.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
I think we're not super private people, because we live a pretty normal life. I don't know. We're just regular folks. I think we're not super protected. We both came from very different upbringings. My husband was raised in a Mormon family, in a very Mormon community, which we're very close with. It's been an interesting navigating it from the beginning, because I'm also a very open minded, very spiritual person. We connect on a deep level, because we just both have a deeply spiritual connection to each other. I don't know. I guess, I have an understanding that when he was going through what he went through and will probably continue to go through for a long time, it's like he's figuring it out his life himself, who he is. I'm doing the same in my own way. I guess what I've learned is helpful for us, is for me to just ... I love him deeply. I don't need him to be anything for me. I don't need him to resolve my issues or be something. I don't have an expectation on him to show up and be a specific person. I love him, and I will love him from far away. Or if he wants to be with me, I'll love him next to me. I'm not looking to him to be a solution for me. I think that's the biggest thing I got out of our separation, was learning how to be the solution for myself and loving myself and respecting myself and respecting his journey, loving him. I think that our marriage is very strong because of that. I think it's always a work in progress. I really tried to stay true to the idea that there's this, that we are two people walking next to each other through this life and raising these beautiful, amazing children that are gifts from the universe, their gifts to the world. I think that's the best I can do. The best advice I could even offer for anyone in marriage is just, really, watch your expectations, because I think they can become a prison for you and for others. I think what you can control really ends at the tip of your nose.
Doug Burke:
How did your husband react when you sang him the song the first time?
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
I mean, he's amazing. We write a lot of music about each other. My music, during that time, was very ... Some of it was pretty hard to listen and digest for him, and painful. This song was painful for him to listen to. He knows. He knows that we're okay. He also knows that I love him so much. I know that he's been through so much. I respect it. It's okay. I'm not expecting him to be perfect. I guess with that, he feels safe. He doesn't feel attacked. There's no need to do that, but is there ... Yeah. I mean, if I'm going to release the music, it tells a story. It's part of a process. It's part of a process. I didn't land on the anger, thank goodness for that. I didn't land on the anger. It was part of the journey. I think he respects that too. Sure, there will be more love songs written about him as well. He'll get those too.
Doug Burke:
Let's hope so. Let's hope you both write love songs about each other that we all can listen to, because we do enjoy the work that you two create. You're a cage fighter. One of the things I love about the video, I'm a Cage Fighter, is when you jump up on Dan's drum set, which seems to be like a signature performance move for you.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Yeah. Man, I just love connecting with Dan. The drums are hard because there's this big barricade between you and the person you're performing with. I think we really broke that down in Nico Vega, and sometimes I would get up there and play the drums. Or I would go behind and play drums next to him or just to really break past that barrier that was between us. I feel like it's a signature move only so that we can really connect, and that's nice. Cage Fighter, that's an example of a song that was really written in the middle of that journey. I was really angry when I wrote that song. I was remembering things that I was really upset about. I was using it to empower myself a lot of times when I feel that empowered, almost like bubbling anger and ferocity, it's like it's self-empowerment in a way.
Doug Burke:
Yeah. Your voice has been described as a war cry, which I like sometimes, but I don't like the concept of war, but a battle cry or ... You definitely have a call to arms and this song with its power chords in the first verse, and the thumping percussive backbeat, just leads you to this rave up explosion and battle. You guys together do this so well, this build up to this explosive release.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Thank you so much.
Doug Burke:
It's really fun to listen to.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
It's primal, I think, for both Dan and I. I think that that's something that live performance and the, I want to say, collaboration brings between us. I think the reason why sometimes I'm just not as fulfilled when I do my solo stuff or work alone, I love that collaboration. I love bouncing that energy off of Dan. I love that we, together, can tap into this primal thing that just is such a release, ultimately. We were watching one of our old shows, which we don't really do. It's not like we sit around and watch old shows. Because we really actually have only ever done it maybe what, Dan? Twice in the last however many years. We watched this old show, and it was so invigorating to tap back into that primal energy that just starts emanating. I think that's what I missed so much about live performance.
Dan Epand:
The whole time that we were in the covey, it's like you were in it. You never really were able to experience from the audience's perspective. I think it took several years away for me to actually step away from it long enough to appreciate what we did.
Doug Burke:
Yeah. It's a little bit like you don't always listening to the sound of your own recorded voice. It's that on steroids. It's actually watching your performance in 3D on video must be something like that. It's like, did I actually do that?
Dan Epand:
I was saying to Aja like that there was a period of time when Nico Vega was ending and all you can talk about were the bad things, the negative things. It's like that just took over the experience. It's like there is hurt involved, there's blame. I think that's when bands end, really, it's like the finger-pointing just takes over. I think it took that period away. I was saying that I never really mourn the good parts of it. I think this video that she's talking about, I had this random experience. It made me really emotional to watch because it's, all of a sudden, you're like, well, this is a different lifetime. This is a different person. This is a different thing. Here, Aja and I, we're still doing it, but it's a different thing.
Doug Burke:
Well, here's the deal, Dan, all the Beatles made great music after the Beatles went on to individual things. Stevie Nicks made great albums after Fleetwood Mac. Glenn Frey, Don Henley made great albums after the Eagles. I bet Kanye West makes a great album after Kim Kardashian too. You guys have made a great album here.
Dan Epand:
Well, thanks, man. Well, hopefully, we'll get to perform it at some point.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Honestly, I don't think that ... I mean, maybe I'm speaking too soon, but I think that we're on great terms with the guitar player of Nico Vega. I hope that someday we get to collaborate again, the three of us. Because it is a special dynamic between the three of us. I think when we're together, even just hanging out, I can feel that energy. We've been through a lot together. I think there was just a number of things that broke the band up, but I think the love was always there. That was one thing that was probably the hardest thing to leave. That was the hardest thing to let go of, for me, anyway. I think probably for Dan, for you too, the loyalty, the love, just the special connection. There were a lot of other things that ended the band as well, the journey, the hardness, the hard road that it takes to be a relentless musician.
Dan Epand:
I mean, a band is like any relationship that you get better at as you get older, but it's a constant communication and series of problem-solving and getting ... I mean, it's a completely unnatural thing. I mean, it's like, if you look at music right now, bands are not something that kids even really know about it. Now it's one-man operation who we're making songs under names, or it's up to people like us, bedroom producer projects, that then you assemble a band for live or for touring.
Doug Burke:
It's Bruno Mars, Taylor Swift, Justin Timberlake, Lady Gaga.
Dan Epand:
Well, I mean, I'm not even talking ... I'm talking like MGMT. They were the first. Now, that's in alternative. That's really all that exists.
Doug Burke:
Well, the radio is gone to support this stuff.
Dan Epand:
Right. It's just not necessary. Music isn't made the same way. It's like Nico Vega. We would go into a practice room, the three of us, and we would write, and I would have this little tape recorder, just so we could remember what we worked on. Nowadays, there isn't a band that's not on some level, self-producing, and starting to learn the art of engineering and recording and producing. I mean, it just come so far since we were doing what we were doing with Nico Vega. Bands are just not a practicality. The point I'm making is that, to keep three people of different backgrounds, different levels of communication. I mean, it's really, really hard. Bands that can survive like 30, 40 years. I mean, obviously, most of those, there's a lot of money on the table that makes it worthwhile. It is a challenge. It's a challenge for all of them and ...
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
It's a second marriage or a first marriage for some. That's part of it too. Marriage takes so much work well. Then when you're in a band, you're married to two or three people or sometimes more, and it is not an easy relationship to keep, cohort marriages.
Dan Epand:
You can't control anybody. You can't tell anybody who to be or what to do. To maintain a unified vision, it is really hard.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Through all that growth, yeah, and life experience, exactly.
Dan Epand:
People change. I mean, I think after in the wake of Nico Vega, I had to do a lot of introspection. I mean, one of the things I really thought about was just that you have to lead by example. You can't tell anybody how to be or it's like if ... Yeah, for it to work, I mean, it's just people are either on the train or they're not. You can't really tell somebody. It's like there are certain people. It's where there's one driving force and one artist and what they say goes. That's not really a band. That's not what Nico Vega was. Nico Vega was three strong personalities, figuring out how to operate under the same roof. As great as it was at times, there was a lot of fire and a lot of strong wills. That's a hard thing to maintain. Even for me and Aja, it's like, the reason it works is because we are both really good communicators. We're both really honest. We're both really good at admitting when we're wrong. I'm probably better than Aja at that.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Amazing.
Doug Burke:
Everybody thinks they are, right?
Dan Epand:
I'm totally kidding. Usually, I'm wrong.
Doug Burke:
Actually, this gets to one of the other songs on your album by TWO, and that is Live Forevermore, which is also sometimes called Feel My Forgiveness. I do think that forgiveness is a key component to the equation in what you're talking about.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
I love that song. That song actually was stepping out of just the personal issue of really my own personal relationship into more of a perspective on maybe my relationship to men in general and feeling maybe life long journey of being a woman, that as a younger person, was maybe violated and then throughout different times of my life, I've experienced different levels of violation and writing some closure to that maybe, some forgiveness for me, and that this journey through my healing of my separation actually helped heal a lot of my life long earlier trauma. That was more maybe in alignment with the whole Me Too movement too, speaks to more that kind of, I guess, issue and part of my life.
Doug Burke:
The songs a nursery rhyme of sorts. I've thought there was, for me, this sense of motherhood in your voice, your lyrical voice here, telling a story maybe for your own children,
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Also, maybe recognizing that as a woman. I was once the victim of certain things, and then you become the mother. You become the wife, the mother, and grow up. I think it's just that whole journey. Then you're singing, protecting ... I'm constantly thinking about how to protect my daughter's or my children from some of the things that inevitably will they'll bump into and throughout life. I think forgiveness is such a powerful tool because, like I said before, it puts the power in your hand, I feel with forgiveness, releasing yourself from it. You find these people who have been through things like have gone to prison or had really a hard ... Maybe a wrongful conviction. I don't know if you've ever watched something with someone who experienced a wrongful conviction and then did time for it. You're like, how? How did they ...
Doug Burke:
I listened to that serial podcast, where you feel like the guy is innocent.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Yeah. You're like, how did they forgive it? Or someone whose daughter was killed, and then they come face to face with the daughter's killer. You're like, how? How? It's really to be set free, because forgiveness sets you free. It just releases you. It's a surrender. When you really get to that place, it feels so good to just be able to let go of that. Maybe part of my forgiveness was also just acknowledging that we live in a world that it's a hard world, and people don't always get a good example of how to move through life. When you're traumatized as a child, for some reason or another, your relationship to the world is through the filter of that trauma. Then we hurt other people, there's still a little kid in there that is acting out, and now they're a grown man or whatever. I'm not saying to dismiss the actions, but I'm just saying like, the world is broken. We have issues, and it sets people up. Maybe there are some entity, like someone comes in a certain way sometimes, and it's like, there's nothing you could do. They can have everything go perfect, and then they're Ted Bundy or something. I know that that's ... I've heard a lot about how he had this perfect childhood and ...
Dan Epand:
But that's not what you're talking about. I mean, what's interesting ...
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
No. I'm not seeking to pain. Pain creates more pain.
Dan Epand:
Yeah. What was interesting is there's a lot of people who would be really upset with that, with the whole notion of forgiveness. I mean, I've had conversations with people where it's like, how could you? You can't ...
Doug Burke:
It's unforgivable.
Dan Epand:
Yeah. I think it's true, and that's something I've ... I don't know where it comes from, whether it's just from Aja and I talking about this concept over the years. For me, personally, there's one or two times where I've cut that person out of my life or it's like, I'm just not going to make that mistake again, and it never. It never feels good. That solution for me is never been a solution to not forgive. Whereas, I mean, there is so much more peace in letting go of anger in that way.
Doug Burke:
This is a great song for us to ... It's a great message for all of us to embrace, to feel forgiveness, and that'll help you live forevermore.
Dan Epand:
I'll add one thing that she sent that as a voice memo. It was like she was clearly outside. You could hear birds chirping and cars driving by. It was just an iPhone recording. I really, as a producer, struggled with whether we just released that iPhone recording or do we produce it? Do we finish out that track? Do we get a gang vocal of women singers? I mean, your head goes, explores the options. Hopefully, I really tried to find a middle ground where it's still maintained the feeling of sitting outside singing a song and having it be personal while making it an actual produced recording.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
I love it.
Doug Burke:
What was the feeling you were going for, Dan?
Dan Epand:
I mean, I wanted to, 100%, maintain what would the innocence and the simplicity of someone playing a song for themselves, but at the same time speaking to ... I mean, I think Aja has the ability to be a voice for people, women, men. People have always been really drawn to her message and have looked to her as a bit of a leader in that respect. This song really felt like it had an important message. I hadn't really heard anybody else capture the sentiment of, if you want to call it the Me Too moment, but hadn't really captured it in such a perfectly poetic, beautiful, and authentic way. I just didn't want to mess it up. I wanted to make sure that ...
Doug Burke:
That's a good goal to have, right? Letting that [inaudible 01:22:16].
Dan Epand:
Yeah. I mean, it is. I mean, it's like that is when you're handed something that is ... It was a little bit in this rough too, I remember feeling that way too. I was like, man, this is something that is ... I feel like the message of the vocal, it's like sometimes it's nailed. Aja nailed both of those. It's about being sensitive and adding what you can to bring the song to life and to give it a vibe. At the same time, you just don't. It's like you want to make sure that what's special about the song comes through in the end. You don't have people who are like, "The guitars too loud, I can't hear the vocals or something." It's a matter of putting together a puzzle that, in the end, needs to support and point to the lyrics and the vocal and just move in the train along down the track and keeping people moving. In the end, we really ... I mean, I had a guitar player who recorded that we set up a mic outside. You're were getting the acoustic guitar and you were capturing the street noise at the same time, really tried to remain true to that demo.
Doug Burke:
Well, Dan Epand and Aja Volkman from the band TWO, I really have to thank you for coming on Backstory Song. This has really been a treat and a pleasure for me, for you to share your personal soul-baring stories. It's really a treasure for our listeners. Is there anything you want to plug, say, promote?
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
I want to say thank you so much for having us. It was really wonderful, you're right, safe space to talk about things. I definitely felt like sometimes I can really ramble. It was nice to have a space where it felt like that was actually needed and wanted, instead of ...
Doug Burke:
That's what we tried to bring here, Backstory Song.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Well, thank you.
Dan Epand:
I mean, it was a nice trip down memory lane. It's funny to revisit some of the older songs, because you even forget that those songs exist, to be honest. It's like if something's out of your brain for a couple of years, it's like a distant memory. It's like doesn't even belong to you.
Doug Burke:
Well, your fans can't forget them. We're grateful that you came on our show. I have to thank DJ Wyatt Schmidt.
Dan Epand:
Thanks, Wyatt.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Thank you.
Doug Burke:
Thank you, MC Owens, my social media. Thank you to our listeners. Please share the Spotify playlist, so these artists can get paid. Please share this episode, so our listeners can learn about some more great music. Thank you very much.
Dan Epand:
All right, thank you. Thanks for having us.
Aja Volkman-Reynolds:
Thank you.
